Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

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dowu
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby dowu » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:31 am

Image

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crazyrobin
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby crazyrobin » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:09 am

dingbat wrote:
hibiki wrote:
Steve2207 wrote:Nevertheless, if her best ends up being a mediocre score (which IMO is in the 150-153 range), she should not just throw in the towel if the law is her passion, because she does have options.


Yes, she should throw in the towel. Pursuing a dream is a great. Pursuing a dream you can't achieve isn't.

There's a reason it's called a dream


That's so depressing.......
For me, consistently achieving 2200+ on SAT prep test then 2000 on test day was a curse of my high school journey. Unfortunately I tried three times to break that curse without any effort.

I don't really know Harvard college was just a "dream" or I just sucks at standard test....

ptittle
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby ptittle » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:18 pm

I would tell her to hire me. Or some other personal tutor. Seriously. I've worked with people who have gotten several low scores consistently, despite doing a lot of practice tests. Which often means they're just doing the same old 'not quite right' thing with the LSAT questions. (and in the meantime, reinforcing that wrong way, practising the wrong way...) They need someone to pin point exactly what they're 'not getting' or they'll keep getting the same low scores.

uvabro
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby uvabro » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:05 pm

dingbat wrote:
hibiki wrote:
Steve2207 wrote:Nevertheless, if her best ends up being a mediocre score (which IMO is in the 150-153 range), she should not just throw in the towel if the law is her passion, because she does have options.


Yes, she should throw in the towel. Pursuing a dream is a great. Pursuing a dream you can't achieve isn't.

There's a reason it's called a dream

yeah, 150-153 is just average - it means her skills at the same deductive reasoning are that of the average human. the lsat does monitor to a pretty decent extent how well people can deduce through fact patterns using rules, which is what ull do in shit school. if my junk was only 5" i never would have stayed in porn. if ur doing a specialty, and not just a labor occupation u need to be gifted in it.

there is nothing wrong with labor or not having any specialties. the problem with our society is there is more respect to most baby boomers in being a terrible lawyer than a great construction worker. other societies view it differently.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Spartan_Alum_12 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:28 pm

uvabro wrote:
dingbat wrote:
hibiki wrote:
Steve2207 wrote:Nevertheless, if her best ends up being a mediocre score (which IMO is in the 150-153 range), she should not just throw in the towel if the law is her passion, because she does have options.


Yes, she should throw in the towel. Pursuing a dream is a great. Pursuing a dream you can't achieve isn't.

There's a reason it's called a dream

yeah, 150-153 is just average - it means her skills at the same deductive reasoning are that of the average human. the lsat does monitor to a pretty decent extent how well people can deduce through fact patterns using rules, which is what ull do in shit school. if my junk was only 5" i never would have stayed in porn. if ur doing a specialty, and not just a labor occupation u need to be gifted in it.

there is nothing wrong with labor or not having any specialties. the problem with our society is there is more respect to most baby boomers in being a terrible lawyer than a great construction worker. other societies view it differently.


Average LSAT taker, definitely still better than the average human. I get your point though.

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Shmoopy
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Shmoopy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:41 pm

ptittle wrote:I would tell her to hire me. Or some other personal tutor. Seriously. I've worked with people who have gotten several low scores consistently, despite doing a lot of practice tests. Which often means they're just doing the same old 'not quite right' thing with the LSAT questions. (and in the meantime, reinforcing that wrong way, practising the wrong way...) They need someone to pin point exactly what they're 'not getting' or they'll keep getting the same low scores.


I have to second this. There is a very good chance that she thinks she knows how to study, but really doesn't. An outside viewpoint is helpful.

guinness1547
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby guinness1547 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:56 pm

Shmoopy wrote:
ptittle wrote:I would tell her to hire me. Or some other personal tutor. Seriously. I've worked with people who have gotten several low scores consistently, despite doing a lot of practice tests. Which often means they're just doing the same old 'not quite right' thing with the LSAT questions. (and in the meantime, reinforcing that wrong way, practising the wrong way...) They need someone to pin point exactly what they're 'not getting' or they'll keep getting the same low scores.


I have to second this. There is a very good chance that she thinks she knows how to study, but really doesn't. An outside viewpoint is helpful.


A 140 seems pretty horrendous though, even with zero studying.

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Shmoopy
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Shmoopy » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:27 am

guinness1547 wrote:
Shmoopy wrote:
ptittle wrote:I would tell her to hire me. Or some other personal tutor. Seriously. I've worked with people who have gotten several low scores consistently, despite doing a lot of practice tests. Which often means they're just doing the same old 'not quite right' thing with the LSAT questions. (and in the meantime, reinforcing that wrong way, practising the wrong way...) They need someone to pin point exactly what they're 'not getting' or they'll keep getting the same low scores.


I have to second this. There is a very good chance that she thinks she knows how to study, but really doesn't. An outside viewpoint is helpful.


A 140 seems pretty horrendous though, even with zero studying.


True, but anyone should be able to improve to at least some degree. Or at least most people.

uvabro
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby uvabro » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:38 am

But she needs a drastic improvement. Thats rarer with the lsat. If ur a fat ass (equivalent of 140 OP) training to be a marathon runner people will laugh at you. But through the right rigamon they slowly make gains and achieve their goals. The diff is People see these goals. Their coffee guy will tell em they look great, some chick will smile at him. Here, people are gonna ask so what's so and so doing - oh she's preparing on the entrance test for 4 months. It takes crazy drive. The kind of dive people make movies about. What they say makes a great film is a story about an average person trying to attain a specific goal with a million obstacles who has a crazy inhuman drive to succeed. Most of us aren't carved out that way. Your friend's past performance suggests she isn't.

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pena2200
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby pena2200 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:40 am

I don't know why she doesn't use her masters. It seems that if she is jumping from one degree program to the next she may not be sure of what she wants, and a large pile of debt at a bad school isn't worth a JD....unless you get very lucky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Tlaib


That being said, everyone is so mean on here, but it's her life and she can do what she wants. A JD just may not be the most prudent choice.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:46 am

What Steve2207 said:

hibiki wrote:
Steve2207 wrote:Image

Image


What I heard:

Steve2207 wrote:I know it will probably gain me some criticism, but . . . If your “friend” wants . . . a mountain of debt, and . . . a very long period of unemployment . . . I would tell her to go for it.
Last edited by prezidentv8 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby snailio » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:48 am

vtoodler wrote:My friend first took the LSAT two years ago and received a 140.

Since then, she has completed a master's degree and claims to have worked through several LSAT preparation books/practice tests.

She recently got her December 2012. Guess what--she got a 140 again.

Earlier this month, she cried to me over the phone about this. What should I tell her? I care very much for her and want to be as gentle (though also helpful) as possible. What would you say?

She has around a 3.5--3.6 GPA from a state university.




I hate to say this, but she should not go to law school, twice and still a 140, the amount of improvement she needs is unlikely at this point and the GPA isn't something that's helping her in any event. It would be different if she was sitting on a high undergrad GPA. Try to convince her to use the Masters to whatever advantage she can, law school is not happening, sorry.

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Steve2207
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Steve2207 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:53 am

prezidentv8 wrote:What Steve2207 said:

hibiki wrote:
Steve2207 wrote:Image

Image


What I heard:

Steve2207 wrote:I know it will probably gain me some criticism, but . . . If your “friend” wants . . . a mountain of debt, and . . . a very long period of unemployment . . . I would tell her to go for it.


For the record, that is not what I said at all. I simply said that she should expect these things if she cant drastically improve her LSAT score. However, if she feels compelled to pursue a law degree despite knowing that this is the circumstance she will be in, then so be it. Maybe she will beat the odds, maybe she won’t, but the fact is that some people will never be satisfied in life until they take a shot at what their “dreams” are. My opinion (which is admittedly unpopular here at TLS), is that it is better to try, and fail ,then it is to have never have tried at all. Most would look at the debt and the odds of employment and forget about it. However, the fact is that some overcome the odds, and while it is rare, it could happen to her. BTW, I still stand firm on the opinion that even a 10 point increase would change her circumstances significantly, and she could get into some decent schools if she is willing to accept employment opportunities in selected areas only.

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dingbat
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby dingbat » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:47 am

Steve2207 wrote:My opinion (which is admittedly unpopular here at TLS), is that it is better to try, and fail ,then it is to have never have tried at all. Most would look at the debt and the odds of employment and forget about it. However, the fact is that some overcome the odds, and while it is rare, it could happen to her.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the third.

I won't advise someone who's 5 foot 4 to hire a basketball coach and put a lot of effort toward getting into the NBA, nor will I advise someone to invest their life savings in lottery tickets.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Typhoon24 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:11 am

I had a friend, too, who "studied through the prep books" and still got a 140. That's total baloney. It's either she got the wrong prep books or isn't absorbing the information properly, both of which could be remedied. If you apply what Manhattan recommends to your prep testing and drilling alone (for example, reading argument cores, knocking out obvious wrong answers [premise boosters in assumption questions, for example], diagramming at least semi-decently, and reading the passage for structure, not necessarily content), you should already be in the high 150s, low 160s range. She needs to take this test seriously and apply herself.

If you're smart enough to get a master's, then you're smart enough to decently on the LSAT.

As homework, tell her to give me the converse, inverse, and contrapostive of that conditional statement.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:22 am

I know someone who got a 137 twice. The second time they studied with Kaplan books for about a week. The crazy part for me was this person would strike you as intelligent if you met them at a party. Just a lazy thinker.

Which law school does your friend want to go to? There are a few alright choices but you gotta wanna live in those areas. Like maybe if she gets a 150 she could get into Tech. A horrible financial decisions, but nearly all law schools are horrible financial decisions. If she knows she is gonna be broke no matter what route she goes down, or if she has been poor her whole life and yet really happy, then maybe a school like Tech would work.

Still requires a retake and a massive improvement.

ptittle
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby ptittle » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:59 pm

i disagree with several of you here...those students i mentioned? they got from those 140s to 160s. two months intensive, 2-3x/wk, with the right tutor. absolutely can happen.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:10 pm

For the record, I was just being an ass because I disagree with you and felt like making a little fun. Internet and all. Anyway...

Where we disagree:

Steve2207 wrote:My opinion (which is admittedly unpopular here at TLS), is that it is better to try, and fail ,then it is to have never have tried at all.


Not with the nondischargable debt involved in most cases. Although, if she was looking at a People's School of Law or other extremely-low-tuition school, then sure, I'd say why not?

Steve2207 wrote:BTW, I still stand firm on the opinion that even a 10 point increase would change her circumstances significantly, and she could get into some decent schools if she is willing to accept employment opportunities in selected areas only.


Unless you're referring to a pretty decently sized, GPA/class rank-contingent scholarship, which decreases the debt issue a bit, I don't think her circumstances would change much at all. Employment outcomes are basically awful at any school that regularly admits people with less than a 160 LSAT, especially given the debt involved in most cases.

TLDR: If no/minimal debt, sure, I agree with you. If any significant debt at all, then I have a different opinion.

vtoodler
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby vtoodler » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:54 pm

She got her master's in social work.

She's a social worker.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby CyanIdes Of March » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:16 pm

I'm of the belief that ANYONE (some qualifications for saneness, age, language, etc) can score at least a 160 with the proper dedication to self-study. The test just isn't that difficult and to score around a 160 only requires the will and drive to do so. Or maybe I'm being an elitist, but I don't think I am.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:23 pm

vtoodler wrote:She got her master's in social work.

She's a social worker.


If she had a masters in Sociology I'd understand why she might be pursuing law. But a MSW is a professional degree so there was no point in getting it unless she intended to work as a social worker. There is absolutely no reason to pursue another professional degree.

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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby thomasjmai22 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:12 pm

CyanIdes Of March wrote:I'm of the belief that ANYONE (some qualifications for saneness, age, language, etc) can score at least a 160 with the proper dedication to self-study. The test just isn't that difficult and to score around a 160 only requires the will and drive to do so. Or maybe I'm being an elitist, but I don't think I am.


I agree here. If she dedicates enough time on studying, it is quite possible for her to improve her score. You mention that she scored a 140 on each occasion so she obviously is not grasping anything new after studying. She can't be completely incompetent if she has her Master's and a decent GPA. If she is self-studying and not improving, she needs to follow a study plan and choose a different strategy. How long did she actually study for? Find that out and multiply that by 10.

03152016
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:24 am

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Last edited by 03152016 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

lloydbraun
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby lloydbraun » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 am

If a person has discipline and diligence there is no reason he or she shouldn't be able to improve substantially. You haven't, however, made it clear whether this young woman has those traits. I get the feeling that maybe she isn't cut out for law school or that maybe she lacks some of the drive to improve, but if that isn't the case I don't think it's unrealistic to think she could improve if she were to put the effort in.

The attitude of some of the posters here is very discouraging, and many imply that if someone can't PT above 150 early on, he may as well throw in the towel. I am unsure if some of you realize how unnerving this kind of conversation can be for those of us who score in the lower percentiles.

I have a diagnostic score of 147. I have no idea how much I will be able to improve this score, but I do know it is possible to take a "dumb" test score and turn it around if one is disciplined and diligent. The first month of my preparing for the SAT I was scoring in the mid-high 500s on each of the three sections. After 6 months and 300 or so hours I was able to PT in the mid-high 700s in critical reading, low 700s in maths, and high 700s in writing multiple choice. My final score for the October 2011 SAT was 2330: 730 Maths, 51/54 raw score; 800 critical reading, 65/67 raw score; 800 writing multiple choice, 49/49 raw score, and a "9" essay.

I realize the SAT is in no way comparable to the LSAT, but it is possible to turn around a bad score if you put the time and effort in, just as it is possible for an average person to become a decent pianist or computer graphics artist etc. without having an innate propensity for such things.

If your friend has the drive to really improve, then maybe let her try again if she can spare the time to practice and prepare. If not, some of the other advice already given should suffice.

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buddyt
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Re: Friend Scored a 140 Twice; What Should I Tell Her?

Postby buddyt » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:54 pm

lloydbraun wrote:The attitude of some of the posters here is very discouraging, and many imply that if someone can't PT above 150 early on, he may as well throw in the towel. I am unsure if some of you realize how unnerving this kind of conversation can be for those of us who score in the lower percentiles.

I have a diagnostic score of 147. I have no idea how much I will be able to improve this score, but I do know it is possible to take a "dumb" test score and turn it around if one is disciplined and diligent.

Nobody is saying this. My diagnostic was 149. After 4-5 months of study, I was comfortably in the 170's. This happens all the time on TLS. When I plot my PTs on a graph, it's basically linear. If you're starting from a 140 you might get a bump in the beginning, but the test is very learnable, and there is an all-but-guaranteed positive relationship between time spent studying (the right way) and score.

That said, it's a monstrously uphill battle for your friend, who really ought not take the real deal until they are PTing 25-30 points higher than they are now. That's an enormous gap. He or she should probably just work with their master's degree.




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