Question for those that go -0 on games

ncc5
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Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby ncc5 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:26 pm

So I am retaking in Dec., mostly due to a horrendous LG score that was about -5 worse than my average. Now I understand why people give the advice that you should be -0 on games consistently. Anyway, I am at that plateau where I consistently miss -2/-3 on games and can't seem to shake it.

Is there any advice you guys could give? To be more specific, how did you get faster, were there certain rules that always led to certain assumptions, etc. I've gone through the bible multiple times, if that helps

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gaud
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby gaud » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:28 pm

Go through every game multiple times. Each time, switch up your approach. If you diagrammed horizontally, try vertical (or vice versa). Trial and error was how I learned. You just need to switch up approaches and see what works best.

ncc5
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby ncc5 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:53 pm

Great advice, thanks

natashka85
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby natashka85 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:14 pm

Do the same game multiple times,every time doing faster,skip questions that are hard and come back to them later,also se diagram from former questions and if u found the right answer pick and move n u dont need to check all the wrong answers.

Terp31
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby Terp31 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:33 pm

natashka85 wrote:Do the same game multiple times,every time doing faster,skip questions that are hard and come back to them later,also se diagram from former questions and if u found the right answer pick and move n u dont need to check all the wrong answers.


Don't do this. When you're going quickly (as you will be while taking the real test) it is very easy to feel confident about an incorrect answer. Take the extra 15 seconds and check the rest of the answer choices. You're aiming for -0, so you want to make sure that you are got each answer correct.

bhan87
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby bhan87 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:54 pm

The thing about Logic Games is when you reach a certain skill level, there should be no questions that feel "squishy". In other words, every answer is almost a mathematic-esque certainty that is impossible to look at in any other way. This level of certainty eventually can become so strong that you'll find yourself finishing every LG section with 5 minutes extra, yet go -0.

Here are some things I did to get better:

1. Take a few games and put aside the questions. Spend 10 minutes JUST making the most comprehensive set up you can ever imagine. Follow every hypothetical, every branch of logic, and wrack your brain of every inference. Consult a guide and compare. If you're missing stuff, put that game aside to go over again some time in the future (possibly after doing a few more games of the same type). If you can not reliably set up every LG perfectly, you can't expect yourself to get a -0 consistently because the most difficult questions in the section almost always come from the fringes of the setup. On the actual LSAT your setup doesn't need to be perfect, but you should be capable of doing a perfect setup in a reasonable amount of time to capture those questions.

2. Go to the questions but don't look at the answer choices. Instead, figure out as many answers you can come up with on your own without looking at answer choices. You might think that this will lead to unlimited sets of possibilities, but actually for most questions, you'll find there's a finite set of things that can actually occur.

3. Go through every answer choice and write out an informal mini-proof as to why it's impossible for anything but the right answer to be correct. Trust me, you can definitively prove every wrong answer as wrong, and it'll have a much clearer explanation than wrong LR answers or RC answers. In other words, think "it's physically impossible to put these two players together here" vs. "this answer does not match the same level certainty as the stimulus, which says something is possible, not guaranteed".

Doing these steps will be excruciatingly time-consuming, but doing it just for a handful of games worked wonders for me. Take some of the games you really messed up on as a starting point. It's almost like lifting weights. You need to exercise your brain and bring it to its outer-most limits in inferences. Consulting a guide before doing that is like using the wrong muscle to make a weight-lifting routine easier.

Ende
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby Ende » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:20 pm

ncc5 wrote:So I am retaking in Dec., mostly due to a horrendous LG score that was about -5 worse than my average. Now I understand why people give the advice that you should be -0 on games consistently. Anyway, I am at that plateau where I consistently miss -2/-3 on games and can't seem to shake it.

Is there any advice you guys could give? To be more specific, how did you get faster, were there certain rules that always led to certain assumptions, etc. I've gone through the bible multiple times, if that helps


Go over to the LSAT blog and buy the 3 month guide (day by day version), and buy a copy of the logic games bible and follow along. It's been working really well for me.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:16 pm

bhan87 wrote:The thing about Logic Games is when you reach a certain skill level, there should be no questions that feel "squishy". In other words, every answer is almost a mathematic-esque certainty that is impossible to look at in any other way. This level of certainty eventually can become so strong that you'll find yourself finishing every LG section with 5 minutes extra, yet go -0.

This is true. Logic games isn't a section where you should think you maybe did pretty well. You should be 100% sure you got them all right.

One key is to make sure you can wrap up the easy games in 4-6 minutes. If you can do that you'll be able to power your way through a tougher game without running out of time.

bp shinners
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby bp shinners » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:17 am

bhan87 wrote:1. Take a few games and put aside the questions. Spend 10 minutes JUST making the most comprehensive set up you can ever imagine. Follow every hypothetical, every branch of logic, and wrack your brain of every inference. Consult a guide and compare. If you're missing stuff, put that game aside to go over again some time in the future (possibly after doing a few more games of the same type). If you can not reliably set up every LG perfectly, you can't expect yourself to get a -0 consistently because the most difficult questions in the section almost always come from the fringes of the setup. On the actual LSAT your setup doesn't need to be perfect, but you should be capable of doing a perfect setup in a reasonable amount of time to capture those questions.


This is great advice - if you really want to start seeing where those deductions/scenarios come from, play around with the games. Writing out a ton of possibilities will make it pretty easy to see where the overlap between them is, and then you can start to see how the rules led to that outcome. I'll do it for new games sometimes just to see if there's a more-efficient method to solve them than what I first used to analyze the game.

Also, Tom Traubert's Blues is an awesome song. But that's unrelated to the question.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
bhan87 wrote:The thing about Logic Games is when you reach a certain skill level, there should be no questions that feel "squishy". In other words, every answer is almost a mathematic-esque certainty that is impossible to look at in any other way. This level of certainty eventually can become so strong that you'll find yourself finishing every LG section with 5 minutes extra, yet go -0.

This is true. Logic games isn't a section where you should think you maybe did pretty well. You should be 100% sure you got them all right.

One key is to make sure you can wrap up the easy games in 4-6 minutes. If you can do that you'll be able to power your way through a tougher game without running out of time.


This. Also this advice works for LR. Get faster at the easy ones so you have more time on the hard ones.

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meggylou
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby meggylou » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:11 pm

A good diagram can help you answer all the questions quickly. I would usually spend 5 min on diagramming and then 2 min. on the questions. Make sure you get all of you if/then statements written out in and in/out game and link them together if possible. For linear games, make sure you lay out the whole A<b<j<c and then go through a determine which things can't go first, last, etc. Diagramming is seriously the key to a good LG score.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:34 pm

meggylou wrote:A good diagram can help you answer all the questions quickly. I would usually spend 5 min on diagramming and then 2 min. on the questions. Make sure you get all of you if/then statements written out in and in/out game and link them together if possible. For linear games, make sure you lay out the whole A<b<j<c and then go through a determine which things can't go first, last, etc. Diagramming is seriously the key to a good LG score.


Eh... I don't really love this advice too much, honestly. The key is efficient diagramming. Spending 5 minutes on a diagram for any game is a colossal waste of time, especially when there should be at least one game in the section that could be completed in under five minutes. Also, with many open ended games (Zones is a good example of this), there simply isn't that much to diagram, and spending 5 minutes trying to force one is what led to a huge time crunch for a lot of people on that section.

gspiel1232
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby gspiel1232 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:08 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
meggylou wrote:A good diagram can help you answer all the questions quickly. I would usually spend 5 min on diagramming and then 2 min. on the questions. Make sure you get all of you if/then statements written out in and in/out game and link them together if possible. For linear games, make sure you lay out the whole A<b<j<c and then go through a determine which things can't go first, last, etc. Diagramming is seriously the key to a good LG score.


Eh... I don't really love this advice too much, honestly. The key is efficient diagramming. Spending 5 minutes on a diagram for any game is a colossal waste of time, especially when there should be at least one game in the section that could be completed in under five minutes. Also, with many open ended games (Zones is a good example of this), there simply isn't that much to diagram, and spending 5 minutes trying to force one is what led to a huge time crunch for a lot of people on that section.


I agree with 179,

In fact i think the faster yoy finish the diagram, the better. Under 2 minutes for sure. You should be looking (quick glace) at the qs to see how detailed the diagram can be. I'm a huge proponent of this after taking October and i think, this itself had shaved a minute off of my time and probably added a point (per section)...an extra fifteen seconds to make back a minute or two? Definitely worth it

For what its worth i missed two on the October section from game one from spending way way too much tone on first game (both from first game)

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby fruitoftheloom » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:34 pm

I'll echo mostly what others have said. Figure out what works for you. I missed LG for a long time because I tried to use the PS Bible method for linear games, and it just wasn't working for me. I would diagram at the bottom of the page and work next to questions and consistently forget/missapply rules. I also had problems where I would incorrectly map a rule B -> A instead of A-> B. Two things I did to fix this: I always, ALWAYS double check my rules before I began questions. I also put a "check" next to reach rule as I diagram it because then I'm looking at the rule three times (one to diagram it, once to "check mark" it, and once to double check). This sounds long, but adds maybe 30 seconds total.

Second: if you can't figure out how to diagram something, find the question that asks you to choose which 1 set up is possible. Do this immediately if you're stuck on a diagram. That one question should show you how to set up the diagram. I did this for zones and didn't spend time freaking out about the open ended diagram.

Third: If you can't find the inference, don't. I was bad at this, but would naturally find them as I worked through the questions, then just add that back into my initial diagram. Seriously - if you're mapping rules and don't see an inference, don't waste time staring at your diagram and praying for the inference to hit you in the face.

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arcanecircle
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby arcanecircle » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:50 am

I am in the same boat as OP. To add to redos

Regular redos are only as good as you make them. Leave at least a 24hr gap between redoing a game so you aren't biased to the deductions. This doesn't mean you can't redo a game that you absolutely failed. Actually, I don't know if others do this (I am not yet at the point where I go -0 on games), but when I'm practicing, if I can't finish a game within 10min I erase all my work and start over again, when I finish the game in 10min or less (if its a harder game, usually if it was #3 or #4 in the PT), then I'll consider it "complete" and stick it in the redo cycle.

I also keep my LGs very organized. Some are just more useful than others, especially when you keep in mind the trends for testing. There are some great games out there that deter diagramming, which I think will be useful to redo multiple times even if you are going -0 on them, just to make sure you are staying flexible. I highlight the AC headers in my Cambridge sets, green for "owned" games that have been redone more than 3 times with 8min or less, yellows for 9-10min and/or incorrect ACs chosen, and purple for the "anti-diagram" or useful games that I want to always keep in my cycle.

Hope this helps or the -0s can at least confirm I am on the right track as well! I am still going -1 to -3 on LGs because I can't work fast enough.
Last edited by arcanecircle on Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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elterrible78
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby elterrible78 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:31 am

There is really a happy medium to be found in terms of diagramming. I certainly would not advocate spending five minutes on it, because that is under any circumstance excessive. At the same time, rushing through the initial setup is a sure way to save time on the front end and waste about three times as much time on the back end. Some basic rules of thumb that I have found to be helpful:

Advanced linear games seem to be the most deduction-heavy, and consequently are usually the games that benefit the most from time spent on the initial setup. Having a good global diagram on advanced linear games often turns it into a 4 minute affair for me, whereas skimping on the diagram lengthens the time necessary considerably.

Basic linear games can usually be set up very quickly, and although there are deductions (usually not-rules) to be made, your success is a whole lot less set-up dependent than advanced linear games (although you may have to hypo more, this can be fairly quick as long as you're remembering - or at least referring back to - the rules).

Pure sequencing games can very often be done based just on your initial diagram alone, so set it up carefully.

Grouping games are less diagram dependent...you usually can't get too awfully much out of them (emphasis here on *usually*). In/out games are even less diagram dependent, and you can actually get away without even diagramming the rules, especially if you're good at all at seeing the contrapositive, since grouping games in general, and in/out games in particular, are largely based on conditional statement rules.

Finally, in a general sense, if you feel like you haven't deduced too awfully much diagramming, a very loose rule of thumb that I use is this: if your initial setup is pretty sparse, take a quick look at the questions. If they overwhelmingly begin with the word "if", there is not too much to worry about. If they don't, there's a good chance you've missed something important.

Good luck!

shntn
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Re: Question for those that go -0 on games

Postby shntn » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:25 pm

I agree with most of the above. The key is to become so incredibly proficient with the easier games that you breeze through them and have more time to dedicate to any harder curve balls thrown your way. If you wind up not needing it, great, you get a extra little break during the LSAT.




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