Need Advice - Cancel twice?

az21833
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Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:23 pm

Which is preferable for t14 schools?

1) Cancel (June 2010) - 170 (December 2012) (Apply Oct/Nov 2012)
2) Cancel (June 2010) - 170 (October 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)
3) Cancel (June 2010) - Cancel (October 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)
Last edited by az21833 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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boblawlob
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby boblawlob » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:31 pm

az21833 wrote:1) Cancel (June 2010) - 170 (December 2012) (Apply Oct/Nov 2012)
2) Cancel (June 2010) - 170 (December 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)
3) Cancel (June 2010) - Cancel (October 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)

How can you take December 2012 twice?

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DaRascal
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby DaRascal » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:32 pm

How can you take December and apply in Oct/Nov? Are you a time traveler?

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mqt
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby mqt » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:33 pm

If this were an LSAT question, I would have gotten a 120.

09042014
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:35 pm

az21833 wrote:1) Cancel (June 2010) - 170 (October 2012) (Apply Oct/Nov 2012)
2) Cancel (June 2010) - 170(October 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)
3) Cancel (June 2010) - Cancel (October 2012) - 174 (December 2012) (Apply Jan 2012)


2/3 are both basically the same. 1 is worse than both.

3 is risky because you only get 1 more shot, and you could fuck up again and get stuck with an even worse score. Don't cancel two tests in a row.

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The Platypus
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby The Platypus » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:43 pm

I'm pretty sure he means October 2012 as the middle test in all three of the possibilities.

Assuming that...the 174 > 170, no matter what time.

Idk how you can be confident that you get a 174, though.

az21833
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby az21833 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:11 pm

Sorry fixed it.. long day. I have been testing high 170's but bombed games today (although did well on rest of test) so looking low 170s. I know that I will do worse on test day then what I practice at (lots of anxiety before standardized tests) but I think a 174 is very do-able.

So consensus is definitely wait and retake if I think I can go up 3/4 points?

Any thoughts on whether to cancel this time or not? Upside would be there would be nothing to average on my record. But do any schools still average? Downside is I wouldn't have anything in the bank and could just choke again. Also the lack of pressure, might actually help me do well.

Do schools have a preference between C-C-174 or C-170-174? Would the double cancel draw a lot more attention then the gradual rise?

Thanks everybody.

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RCinDNA
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby RCinDNA » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:15 pm

az21833 wrote:Sorry fixed it.. long day. I have been testing high 170's but bombed games today (although did well on rest of test) so looking low 170s. I know that I will do worse on test day then I practice but I think a 174 is very do-able.


Did you bomb the entire games section or just a couple of questions on one or two of them?

az21833
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby az21833 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:27 pm

For some reason I froze on the first game after trying to create some pretty detailed scenarios, something didnt click and I panicked - saw I was already ~12 mins in and not getting anywhere so went and took care of 2 and 3. Then got to Zones which took up the rest of the time for me. I also realized at the end that I had misinterpreted a rule for Zones so everything I answered was probably wrong. Conservatively, I will assume I guessed all Game 1 and Game 4 - total of 11 questions.

Good news is I usually only get about -1 on RC and -1/2 LR and felt really good about those sections today. LG was my experimental so that hope allowed me to keep my head in the game because I aced the experimental (which I am sure you have heard, was VERY easy - look forward to that future test takers)

So assuming 11 guesses, 2 guess corrects and -1 RC and -2 LR gets me to -12. Looking at about a -12 curve (seems to be consensus) - so I am coming out at about 170 in my calculations.

Should I take it for the third time or just apply with the low 170? Have a 3.99 from an ivy so had high hopes before todays disaster.

Also, cancel or not?

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:54 am

anybody have advice on this situation? many thanks.

Will_Imake_it
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Re: Which is better for admissions

Postby Will_Imake_it » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:56 am

Mqt wrote:If this were an LSAT question, I would have gotten a 120.

lawlz

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SumStalwart
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby SumStalwart » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:53 am

This is a tough call. Which schools are you trying to go to? I would imagine, with a GPA like that, you are aiming for HYS. Your GPA sets you at above the 75% for all of the schools. A 170 would be under the 25% for the top schools.

If I were you, I wouldn't cancel, however, I would definitely retake in December. Submit your applications with the 170, and then you can attach the new LSAT score, when you get it. In addition, it might be beneficial to attach an addendum to explain your rationale and the potential score differential. It will probably be worse than if you had just gotten a 174, however, it won't be nearly as serious if you underperform on the December LSAT and then submit that score. Furthermore, since it would be your 3rd, you would have to either sit out of the next subsequent cycles, or just go with the score that you have.

The latter alternative sounds like you would be setting yourself for a great disservice. I don't think that it's worth the risk.

In the meantime, just study for the upcoming LSAT and complete your applications. Who knows, the curve might be -13 or the anomalous -14 (we wish).

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:17 pm

SumStalwart wrote:This is a tough call. Which schools are you trying to go to? I would imagine, with a GPA like that, you are aiming for HYS. Your GPA sets you at above the 75% for all of the schools. A 170 would be under the 25% for the top schools.

If I were you, I wouldn't cancel, however, I would definitely retake in December. Submit your applications with the 170, and then you can attach the new LSAT score, when you get it. In addition, it might be beneficial to attach an addendum to explain your rationale and the potential score differential. It will probably be worse than if you had just gotten a 174, however, it won't be nearly as serious if you underperform on the December LSAT and then submit that score. Furthermore, since it would be your 3rd, you would have to either sit out of the next subsequent cycles, or just go with the score that you have.

The latter alternative sounds like you would be setting yourself for a great disservice. I don't think that it's worth the risk.

In the meantime, just study for the upcoming LSAT and complete your applications. Who knows, the curve might be -13 or the anomalous -14 (we wish).


Yes, ideally shooting for HYS but would be very content with CCN.

Thanks this is very, very helpful. I think the right move here is to keep the score, get the 170 in the bank, and then retake in December as you suggest. This limits the risk of the third test and takes the pressure off. Let me know if anybody out there feels differently and thinks I should cancel again and just go for the single 174+. I should mention that I don't think theres anyway I get below 170 in Dec - thats my absolute downside. Do schools still average?

Is a cancel - 170 - 174 really worthy of an addendum? I thought it would be pretty clear to admissions officers the story behind that sort of trend and hopefully not to alarming given the upward trend.

Lastly, theres a chance we get a -13 curve. Assuming I get -9 on LG and then -1 LR and -1 RC this would put me at what - a 172? This would be my absolute upside. If I hit that, should I retake a third time or just run with the 172?

Thank you all so much, I really have nobody else to speak to about this stuff so TLS has been very helpful in sorting this all out for me. Just really depressed because while I have commonly bombed one game and gotten LG -4, I have never bombed two games like this.

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SumStalwart
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby SumStalwart » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:15 pm

I'm glad that I could help a little bit.

A four point increase is encroaching on something outside of the reasonable bounds, for admissions officers. I think that I read something about generally writing addenda for larger increases. I could be wrong...

Most law schools take the higher score, however, many people on TLS have said that HYS either average or strongly consider both scores. That's why I was suggesting the addendum.

If you got a 172? I'm not sure a retake would be necessary. It would help you out a lot more to have a higher score, but a 172 puts you right around their medians (a significantly better position than either 170 or 171).

Good Luck!

tepper
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby tepper » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:54 pm

1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:07 pm

tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.



1. i very well might, I readily recognize this

2. i usually get -1 or -2 on RC and -1 and -2 on the two LR sections combined on practice tests and felt good on test day on those sections. Assuming a -12 curve, guessing on 11 games, getting 2 back for guessing correctly, that gives me three other questions as cushion for the 170 - that is what im basing it off of, but should I assume I did worse than usual on those sections too? they seemed average (if not below average) difficulty to me on Saturday.

3. Understood. So you recommend I don't cancel and just apply to lower t14s with my 170 without waiting and retaking in December?

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honeybadger12
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby honeybadger12 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:10 pm

tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.

1) He's averaging high 170s in the preptests. Don't even think about freezing, just go into December relaxed and CRUSH it. I was averaging high 170s in the preptests, bombed the real thing (cancel), and then hit 174. It can be done, do it. Don't doubt.

tepper
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby tepper » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:10 pm

az21833 wrote:
tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.



1. i very well might, I readily recognize this

2. i usually get -1 or -2 on RC and -1 and -2 on the two LR sections combined on practice tests and felt good on test day on those sections. Assuming a -12 curve, guessing on 11 games, getting 2 back for guessing correctly, that gives me three other questions as cushion for the 170 - that is what im basing it off of, but should I assume I did worse than usual on those sections too? they seemed average (if not below average) difficulty to me on Saturday.

3. Understood. So you recommend I don't cancel and just apply to lower t14s with my 170 without waiting and retaking in December?



Applying with a Dec score can be detrimental to your chances, because spots runs low towards the end of the cycle.

I don't know your LSAT ability, but the fact that you guessed on 11 games question, in addition to the fact that it was the real deal which leads to more test anxiety, I wouldn't be so optimistic about only missing 1 or 2 in the other sections. Most people tend to score lower in the real thing.

tepper
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby tepper » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:11 pm

honeybadger12 wrote:
tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.

1) He's averaging high 170s in the preptests. Don't even think about freezing, just go into December relaxed and CRUSH it. I was averaging high 170s in the preptests, bombed the real thing (cancel), and then hit 174. It can be done, do it. Don't doubt.


It's easier said than done.

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honeybadger12
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby honeybadger12 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:13 pm

az21833 wrote:
tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.



1. i very well might, I readily recognize this

2. i usually get -1 or -2 on RC and -1 and -2 on the two LR sections combined on practice tests and felt good on test day on those sections. Assuming a -12 curve, guessing on 11 games, getting 2 back for guessing correctly, that gives me three other questions as cushion for the 170 - that is what im basing it off of, but should I assume I did worse than usual on those sections too? they seemed average (if not below average) difficulty to me on Saturday.

3. Understood. So you recommend I don't cancel and just apply to lower t14s with my 170 without waiting and retaking in December?

2) Who knows, but I think 170 is a reasonable guess.
3) If I'm in your shoes, zero chance I don't retake. The purpose of the LSAT is to give law schools an idea of your intellectual aptitude. Your current scores don't reflect your intellectual aptitude. Gotta change that.

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:29 pm

honeybadger12 wrote:
az21833 wrote:
tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.



1. i very well might, I readily recognize this

2. i usually get -1 or -2 on RC and -1 and -2 on the two LR sections combined on practice tests and felt good on test day on those sections. Assuming a -12 curve, guessing on 11 games, getting 2 back for guessing correctly, that gives me three other questions as cushion for the 170 - that is what im basing it off of, but should I assume I did worse than usual on those sections too? they seemed average (if not below average) difficulty to me on Saturday.

3. Understood. So you recommend I don't cancel and just apply to lower t14s with my 170 without waiting and retaking in December?

2) Who knows, but I think 170 is a reasonable guess.
3) If I'm in your shoes, zero chance I don't retake. The purpose of the LSAT is to give law schools an idea of your intellectual aptitude. Your current scores don't reflect your intellectual aptitude. Gotta change that.



thank you guys both this is really helpful. I think I will retake in December since I think I am capable of much more (even just completing 3 games should get me to the 173 mark.) That being said, Tepper could very well be right and I could have gotten as low as a 168 I think this time around. Should I cancel to prevent HYS from averaging or will the double cancel look really bad? other downside is canceling again would just increase pressure on december and pressure seems to be the only thing in my way at this point. thanks

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honeybadger12
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby honeybadger12 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:44 pm

az21833 wrote:
honeybadger12 wrote:
az21833 wrote:
tepper wrote:1. what makes you think you won't freeze again next time when you take it?
2. 170 sounds extremely optimistic on your behalf, based on what you said. How can you be so sure that you only missed one in each of the other sections?
3. most retakers won't improve more than 1-2 points (This is published by LSAC), so again, don't be unrealistically optimistic, take this score and apply with it.



1. i very well might, I readily recognize this

2. i usually get -1 or -2 on RC and -1 and -2 on the two LR sections combined on practice tests and felt good on test day on those sections. Assuming a -12 curve, guessing on 11 games, getting 2 back for guessing correctly, that gives me three other questions as cushion for the 170 - that is what im basing it off of, but should I assume I did worse than usual on those sections too? they seemed average (if not below average) difficulty to me on Saturday.

3. Understood. So you recommend I don't cancel and just apply to lower t14s with my 170 without waiting and retaking in December?

2) Who knows, but I think 170 is a reasonable guess.
3) If I'm in your shoes, zero chance I don't retake. The purpose of the LSAT is to give law schools an idea of your intellectual aptitude. Your current scores don't reflect your intellectual aptitude. Gotta change that.



thank you guys both this is really helpful. I think I will retake in December since I think I am capable of much more (even just completing 3 games should get me to the 173 mark.) That being said, Tepper could very well be right and I could have gotten as low as a 168 I think this time around. Should I cancel to prevent HYS from averaging or will the double cancel look really bad? other downside is canceling again would just increase pressure on december and pressure seems to be the only thing in my way at this point. thanks

I haven't researched this enough to give you a good answer (if I were in your shoes, I'd do a ton of research the next couple days - TLS, call admissions offices, etc). My instinct is to not cancel (I don't like the CC). I don't really know, though.

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honeybadger12
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby honeybadger12 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:00 pm

One more thing: unless you absolutely need HYS or your life is ruined, or you must apply this cycle, don't feel pressure in December. Most of the T14 takes highest score, so you'll definitely get a T14 if you want it bad enough (even if you bomb December, you could keep retaking until you do well). This obviously wouldn't be a great plan cuz it'd mean delaying a year at least, but if you're dead set on T14 you know you can get it eventually. Thinking this way helped me feel less pressure in my second test.

It's not a good route, so definitely plan on crushing December, but at least you can know in the back of your mind that your professional life will be okay regardless of how you perform.

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:50 pm

honeybadger12 wrote:One more thing: unless you absolutely need HYS or your life is ruined, or you must apply this cycle, don't feel pressure in December. Most of the T14 takes highest score, so you'll definitely get a T14 if you want it bad enough (even if you bomb December, you could keep retaking until you do well). This obviously wouldn't be a great plan cuz it'd mean delaying a year at least, but if you're dead set on T14 you know you can get it eventually. Thinking this way helped me feel less pressure in my second test.

It's not a good route, so definitely plan on crushing December, but at least you can know in the back of your mind that your professional life will be okay regardless of how you perform.


thanks very much, so far I am planning on keeping my score for this very reason. A 3.99/168-171 will definitely get me into a couple lesser t14's which are still amazing schools. knowing that I have that option already lined up will certainly take some of the edge off.

will do a lot of research before deciding whether to cancel or keep. if anybody out there on TLS has any insight into whether HYS and CCN prefer C/C/173 vs. C/169/173 - would be greatly appreciated. thanks

az21833
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Re: Need Advice - Cancel twice?

Postby az21833 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:10 am

az21833 wrote:
honeybadger12 wrote:One more thing: unless you absolutely need HYS or your life is ruined, or you must apply this cycle, don't feel pressure in December. Most of the T14 takes highest score, so you'll definitely get a T14 if you want it bad enough (even if you bomb December, you could keep retaking until you do well). This obviously wouldn't be a great plan cuz it'd mean delaying a year at least, but if you're dead set on T14 you know you can get it eventually. Thinking this way helped me feel less pressure in my second test.

It's not a good route, so definitely plan on crushing December, but at least you can know in the back of your mind that your professional life will be okay regardless of how you perform.


thanks very much, so far I am planning on keeping my score for this very reason. A 3.99/168-171 will definitely get me into a couple lesser t14's which are still amazing schools. knowing that I have that option already lined up will certainly take some of the edge off.

will do a lot of research before deciding whether to cancel or keep. if anybody out there on TLS has any insight into whether HYS and CCN prefer C/C/173 vs. C/169/173 - would be greatly appreciated. thanks


hoping to make a decision today or tomorrow if anybody has any last minute pearls of wisdom here on whether to cancel. still very, very torn. any guidance would be much appreciated.




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