Velocity or Manhattan?

Humbert Humbert
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Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:10 pm

I am thinking about taking the February test and I am wondering which course is generally perceived to be better. To be clear, I am referring to the comprehensive (online) Velocity course, and the in-person Manhattan course. My main question is, is it worth 2x the price to attend Manhattan in person? Or is Velocity (online) sufficient?

For what it's worth, I am open to other courses as well, of course - it just seems that these two are among the most highly regarded.

Thanks

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:21 pm

Manhattan, hands down. I will probably be seeing you in class later this year, provided you're taking in NYC.

kaseyb002
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby kaseyb002 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:36 pm

Velocity while using the manhattan books to supplement. But every response you get is gonna be a little biased.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:25 pm

Can anyone who has taken one of these courses (or has useful knowledge of them) provide some pros/cons?

Thanks

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:47 pm

Humbert Humbert wrote:Can anyone who has taken one of these courses (or has useful knowledge of them) provide some pros/cons?

Thanks



MLSAT

- Class limited to 20 students or less;

- Superb methods, especially in tacking LG and LR questions;

- Each student has 30-minute office hours per week with the instructor where you can ask your questions, get further clarification specific to your needs, etc.;

- Homework assignments are distributed in a syllabus format with corresponding workbooks; very concise and succinct;

- Provided with all released LSAT tests for free (PDF format);

- Ability to use facilities to study and/or take mock proctored exam, which they schedule;

- Manhattan LSATs forum where additional instructors provide answers to whatever question from whichever LSAT;

- Offers both online and offline classes, and classes specific to LSAT sections (example: LG Drilling). This is separate from private tutoring, which registered students get at a discounted hourly rate;

- LSAT Tracker - You take PT, input results, get feedback from instructor on where they think your weaknesses are and if need be, they will email you additional suggested questions that you can work on/drill the weakness;

- If needed to repeat a course, you can do so for free the second time around; and

- Last but not least, the teachers are amazing (shout out to Mike Kim, Noah and Matt Sherman, amongst others)!

M.M.
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby M.M. » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:54 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
Humbert Humbert wrote:Can anyone who has taken one of these courses (or has useful knowledge of them) provide some pros/cons?

Thanks



MLSAT

- Class limited to 20 students or less;

- Superb methods, especially in tacking LG and LR questions;

- Each student has 30-minute office hours per week with the instructor where you can ask your questions, get further clarification specific to your needs, etc.;

- Homework assignments are distributed in a syllabus format with corresponding workbooks; very concise and succinct;

- Provided with all released LSAT tests for free (PDF format);

- Ability to use facilities to study and/or take mock proctored exam, which they schedule;

- Manhattan LSATs forum where additional instructors provide answers to whatever question from whichever LSAT;

- Offers both online and offline classes, and classes specific to LSAT sections (example: LG Drilling). This is separate from private tutoring, which registered students get at a discounted hourly rate;

- LSAT Tracker - You take PT, input results, get feedback from instructor on where they think your weaknesses are and if need be, they will email you additional suggested questions that you can work on/drill the weakness;

- If needed to repeat a course, you can do so for free the second time around; and

- Last but not least, the teachers are amazing (shout out to Mike Kim, Noah and Matt Sherman, amongst others)!


I was looking at their liveonline course yesterday and the bolded is untrue, you only get 30 PTs.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:09 pm

M.M. wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
Humbert Humbert wrote:Can anyone who has taken one of these courses (or has useful knowledge of them) provide some pros/cons?

Thanks



MLSAT

- Class limited to 20 students or less;

- Superb methods, especially in tacking LG and LR questions;

- Each student has 30-minute office hours per week with the instructor where you can ask your questions, get further clarification specific to your needs, etc.;

- Homework assignments are distributed in a syllabus format with corresponding workbooks; very concise and succinct;

- Provided with all released LSAT tests for free (PDF format);

- Ability to use facilities to study and/or take mock proctored exam, which they schedule;

- Manhattan LSATs forum where additional instructors provide answers to whatever question from whichever LSAT;

- Offers both online and offline classes, and classes specific to LSAT sections (example: LG Drilling). This is separate from private tutoring, which registered students get at a discounted hourly rate;

- LSAT Tracker - You take PT, input results, get feedback from instructor on where they think your weaknesses are and if need be, they will email you additional suggested questions that you can work on/drill the weakness;

- If needed to repeat a course, you can do so for free the second time around; and

- Last but not least, the teachers are amazing (shout out to Mike Kim, Noah and Matt Sherman, amongst others)!


I was looking at their liveonline course yesterday and the bolded is untrue, you only get 30 PTs.


"Looking at" is different from being an actual student. I was a former live online student and I have received all PTs to that date, so I'm not quite sure why you have not received all the PTs (if, in fact, a student).

You should email Noah or Matt about this.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:14 pm

And according to this sample of a Live Course, it states contrary to what you are suggesting:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/EventShow. ... ventID=886

"With every exam released by LSAC at your fingertips, you'll be set to practice LSATs from start to finish."

M.M.
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby M.M. » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 pm

BlaqBella wrote:And according to this sample of a Live Course, it states contrary to what you are suggesting:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/EventShow. ... ventID=886

"With every exam released by LSAC at your fingertips, you'll be set to practice LSATs from start to finish."


Under "class details" and "class includes":

3 Strategy Guides and 30+ PrepTests

Maybe it's just the specific accelerated class I was looking at, because a link leading to that said you get all PTs ... I only really remembered this because I found it weird that they'd only include 30.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:29 pm

BlaqBella, so you already took the Live Online version of Manhattan, and now you are taking the in-person? Did you not score as highly as you would have liked?

Anyone else have thoughts on these two courses?

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:34 pm

Humbert Humbert wrote:BlaqBella, so you already took the Live Online version of Manhattan, and now you are taking the in-person? Did you not score as highly as you would have liked?

Anyone else have thoughts on these two courses?


I was working 80+ hour weeks and could not give my online class the full attention it deserved. Nor did I use all avenues of improvement presented given life demands. That said, the class helped me bump my score by 16 points.

I've now switched employers, have a much better work schedule and taking one more go at it (for nailing down basics purposes, familiarizing myself with the content of LSAT again, etc.), alongside private tutoring.

I may sound like a gunner but I want nothing less than a 180 (at least that's the mentality I have with how I decide to approach this exam).

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Cerebro
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Cerebro » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:35 pm

M.M. wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:And according to this sample of a Live Course, it states contrary to what you are suggesting:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/EventShow. ... ventID=886

"With every exam released by LSAC at your fingertips, you'll be set to practice LSATs from start to finish."


Under "class details" and "class includes":

3 Strategy Guides and 30+ PrepTests

Maybe it's just the specific accelerated class I was looking at, because a link leading to that said you get all PTs ... I only really remembered this because I found it weird that they'd only include 30.


Well, the "+" seems to indicate there are AT LEAST 30. Even if they give you all of them, it's still 30+.

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Funkycrime
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Funkycrime » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:42 pm

I used both and only these two companies in my prep for October. I am going to write up a full review after I take, but you should be aware that Manhattan's LR is miles ahead of Velocity. Velocity has some useful tricks, especially for flaw recognition, but it really takes the basics for granted. I started with Velocity, but my LR would be a disaster if I had not read Manhattan's guide. I just took a PT and am pretty brain dead right now, but I would be happy to give you more specific information if you need it.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:52 pm

Funkycrime wrote:I used both and only these two companies in my prep for October. I am going to write up a full review after I take, but you should be aware that Manhattan's LR is miles ahead of Velocity. Velocity has some useful tricks, especially for flaw recognition, but it really takes the basics for granted. I started with Velocity, but my LR would be a disaster if I had not read Manhattan's guide. I just took a PT and am pretty brain dead right now, but I would be happy to give you more specific information if you need it.


At your convenience, that would be very much appreciated. I am mainly trying to gauge if Manhattan is worth the extra cost.

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annet
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby annet » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:19 pm

This is hard since I'm taking October so don't have a score to be all "omg 165 to 1XX." I also did not have the option of taking a face to face class (other than Kaplan or Princeton Review)

So far I've liked Velocity a lot. I'm glad I opted for printing myself rather than paper books. It's let me go back and, more or less, print the entire games book twice - once to use while doing the videos and then again for review and to work on timing. I don't know if between paper and toner I saved anything, but it's nice that it's an option.

My only complaint thus far is that there are some useful tips within videos for specific questions, so it's hard to go back and review via video because the titles to those are completely meaningless (page number and question number). But that's a minor quibble and I should be taking more PTs and not reviewing videos anyway :).

Office hours are available and archived and I have no doubt that if I emailed Dave he'd get back to me quickly. But so far I can't come up with a question beyond "/whine/ why am I so bad at LR?" I really really hate the stupid Blackboard online interface but what are you going to do? I'll admit that, along with price, the fact that Velocity's videos are outside of the Bb ecosystem was a selling point for me.

I'm super biased on games because Dave's method got me under 8 minutes on all but the most truly evil ones. I had done the entire LGB but kept getting bogged down in inferences and wasn't being efficient at all. This is one section where I feel like I'm totally doing, in his words, kung fu. So, highly recommended there.

Reading hasn't been a problem for me but I'm still not -0/section either. I really like Dave's post-it note method (he's posted it here at least once in his advice thread). It's annoying as all get out and sloooow but it forces you to think about the question and acknowledge that there is only one right answer. Videos for that section? Eh. C+? B-? They were good but there aren't any earth-shattering revelations contained within either.

LR. Ahh... I'm hoping Funkycrime is right. This has been and still is my worst section. Dave/Velocity got me a hell of a lot farther than LRB but I'm not as far as I'd like to be either. This could have nothing at all to do with Dave's teaching and everything to do with my brain. Like I said, Velocity was far better than LRB, even though I think I watched some of the conditional reasoning videos 8 or 9 times before I got the important point (why, oh why are these things not clear to me?). Reading Manhattan's guide is next on my to-do list.

M.M.
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby M.M. » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:47 pm

Cerebro wrote:
M.M. wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:And according to this sample of a Live Course, it states contrary to what you are suggesting:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/EventShow. ... ventID=886

"With every exam released by LSAC at your fingertips, you'll be set to practice LSATs from start to finish."


Under "class details" and "class includes":

3 Strategy Guides and 30+ PrepTests

Maybe it's just the specific accelerated class I was looking at, because a link leading to that said you get all PTs ... I only really remembered this because I found it weird that they'd only include 30.


Well, the "+" seems to indicate there are AT LEAST 30. Even if they give you all of them, it's still 30+.



... :?

I know being in the LSAT prep and discussion forum gives us an excuse to be logical Nazis, but c'mon. It's not likely a company would advertise in such self defeating a way intentionally.

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Cerebro
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Cerebro » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:21 pm

M.M. wrote:
Cerebro wrote:
M.M. wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:And according to this sample of a Live Course, it states contrary to what you are suggesting:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/EventShow. ... ventID=886

"With every exam released by LSAC at your fingertips, you'll be set to practice LSATs from start to finish."


Under "class details" and "class includes":

3 Strategy Guides and 30+ PrepTests

Maybe it's just the specific accelerated class I was looking at, because a link leading to that said you get all PTs ... I only really remembered this because I found it weird that they'd only include 30.


Well, the "+" seems to indicate there are AT LEAST 30. Even if they give you all of them, it's still 30+.



... :?

I know being in the LSAT prep and discussion forum gives us an excuse to be logical Nazis, but c'mon. It's not likely a company would advertise in such self defeating a way intentionally.



1. I went to the Manhattan site and looked at every single course and self-study option. Every one of them, under course materials indicates that students have access to every LSAT released. Even the cheapest option I could find indicates that all tests are available for access:

Image

2. Under course info, it says "30+" tests. I was merely pointing out that these two statements are not contradictory.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or offended you in some way.

M.M.
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby M.M. » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:26 pm

Cerebro wrote:
M.M. wrote:
Cerebro wrote:
M.M. wrote:
Well, the "+" seems to indicate there are AT LEAST 30. Even if they give you all of them, it's still 30+.



... :?

I know being in the LSAT prep and discussion forum gives us an excuse to be logical Nazis, but c'mon. It's not likely a company would advertise in such self defeating a way intentionally.



1. I went to the Manhattan site and looked at every single course and self-study option. Every one of them, under course materials indicates that students have access to every LSAT released. Even the cheapest option I could find indicates that all tests are available for access:

Image

2. Under course info, it says "30+" tests. I was merely pointing out that these two statements are not contradictory.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or offended you in some way.



Lol, ok.

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Jeffort
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:06 am

Wormfather wrote:I still don't understand why people just don't get PTs the same way they get music and movies. Torrents freed information for a reason.


Uhm, torrents did not make copyright infringement/stealing intellectual property legal.

Plus, at least some, hopefully close to all (I know, wishful thinking) people seeking to become lawyers in order to practice law as a career are not ethically challenged, but instead respect and follow the law with the intention of working within the system in ways to uphold and contribute to having a fair and just society with a fair judicial/legal system available to everybody for resolving problems when there is a dispute/controversy/alleged crime of some type.

At some point after graduating from law school people certainly start to appreciate getting paid for the things they write/intellectual property they produce to make a living and are not happy when others steal it.
Last edited by Jeffort on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:13 am

Jeffort wrote:
Wormfather wrote:I still don't understand why people just don't get PTs the same way they get music and movies. Torrents freed information for a reason.


Uhm, torrents did not make copyright infringement/stealing intellectual property legal.

Plus, at least some, hopefully close to all (I know, wishful thinking) people seeking to become lawyers in order to practice law as a career are not ethically challenged, but instead respect and follow the law with the intention of working within the system in ways to uphold and contribute to having a fair and just society with a fair judicial system available to everybody for resolving problems when there is a dispute/controversy/alleged crime of some type.

At some point after graduating from law school people certainly start to appreciate getting paid for the things they write/intellectual property they produce to make a living and are not happy when others steal it.


+100000

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:23 pm

Any other thoughts?

Manhattan LSAT Cory
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Manhattan LSAT Cory » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:29 pm

Just to clear up any confusion: we do provide every PrepTest released by LSAC to all course students, self-study students, and 10+ hour tutoring students. Any place on our site that says 30+ tests is a relic of a by gone era, and will be updated. Happy studying!

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:13 pm

Thanks for the comments. After reading the "Great Advice..." thread, I am wondering how necessary it even is to take a course, given that the majority of the high scorers, it seems, self-studied. Perhaps some combination of a self-study regimen (using Bibles, Manhattan LR, and PTs) and maybe a couple hours of a tutor to fill in any blanks as I get closer to the test date would work. Any thoughts?

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annet
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby annet » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:40 am

Humbert Humbert wrote:Thanks for the comments. After reading the "Great Advice..." thread, I am wondering how necessary it even is to take a course, given that the majority of the high scorers, it seems, self-studied. Perhaps some combination of a self-study regimen (using Bibles, Manhattan LR, and PTs) and maybe a couple hours of a tutor to fill in any blanks as I get closer to the test date would work. Any thoughts?


I agree that a course isn't necessary. The main reason I went with one is because I've been out of school for about six years, work full-time, and (rightfully) didn't trust myself to get back into studying like my student days. Because I'm working full-time the money wasn't a huge problem.

I was happy to exchange money for someone else organizing all of the questions into groups and telling me exactly when and in what order to do them (between pithypike's guide and lists of questions by type this is completely doable on your own). Also, just in terms of different learning methods, I liked having the videos in addition to the text. Again, though, that's a "nice to have" rather than a "must have."

One thing I would do is pay a little bit more for the digital Cambridge PTs and bundles. I feel like having the pdfs to print and reprint is FAR easier than copying from awkward books. Unless you have access to a free copier that you can monopolize when you need it, this is money well spent.

tl;dr - pithypike + LGB/LRB/Manhattan books + Superprep + Cambridge digital stuff = just fine. Good luck to you!

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Velocity or Manhattan?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:44 pm

annet wrote:I agree that a course isn't necessary. The main reason I went with one is because I've been out of school for about six years, work full-time, and (rightfully) didn't trust myself to get back into studying like my student days.!


This was my situation exactly. The course provides some accountability when you know that otherwise you would head home after a long day at work and relax instead of study.




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