Scoring high but running out of time

piney
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Scoring high but running out of time

Postby piney » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:01 pm

I don't plan on going to law school unless I can get in to one of the top 6. I'm aiming for NYU and Columbia, and since I have a 3.5 GPA (top liberal arts) and don't want to apply ED (I need funding), I really need to score in the mid to high 170s to make it. This is where I'm already scoring when I don't time myself and have lots of time to decide on the best answer. But when I give myself only 35 min. per section and rush, I don't get to answer the final questions and end up with scores in the 160s.

Is there anything I can do between now and Oct. 6 to fix this? I don't consistently run out of time, but practice isn't making me that much faster. Last week, for example, I finished an LG section in 30 min. Today LG took me almost 50, and even though I finished the first LR section in 35, the second took over 40. What should I do?
Last edited by piney on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby WanderingPondering » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:05 pm

If it takes you 50 minutes to finish a LG, you need to drill more. The more you drill, the easier you'll make infrences and you'll make less mistakes with the set up.

Seriously, just get the LB Bible, learn the basics and drill and drill and drill and drill. It'll become second nature and you'll be completing sections in 20 minutes.

No secrets with LG

piney
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby piney » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:16 pm

Inferences in the initial diagram aren't difficult for me. It's the less obvious "could be true" and "must be false" questions that take up most of my time, since they aren't always based inferences in the diagram.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby NoodleyOne » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:19 pm

Don't stare at q... attack it. If the answer isn't readily available on your main diagram, immediately start hypoing. Staring at the q or trying to do it in your head probably won't help, and a hypo can possibly help you on a later q in the section.

bp shinners
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby bp shinners » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:52 pm

piney wrote:Inferences in the initial diagram aren't difficult for me. It's the less obvious "could be true" and "must be false" questions that take up most of my time, since they aren't always based inferences in the diagram.


Must Be False is easy - just approach it as "Which one of the following breaks a rule?" If you've got all the rules and deductions down, MBF is just looking for an answer that breaks one.

CBT are a little harder because you have to trust that something can be true as long as it doesn't contradict a rule/deduction; if you test everything, it'll take longer. If that's difficult for you, treat these as Must Be False EXCEPT questions - rule out anything that breaks a rule, and what's left is something that CBT.

piney
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby piney » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:09 am

bp shinners wrote:
piney wrote:Inferences in the initial diagram aren't difficult for me. It's the less obvious "could be true" and "must be false" questions that take up most of my time, since they aren't always based inferences in the diagram.


Must Be False is easy - just approach it as "Which one of the following breaks a rule?" If you've got all the rules and deductions down, MBF is just looking for an answer that breaks one.

CBT are a little harder because you have to trust that something can be true as long as it doesn't contradict a rule/deduction; if you test everything, it'll take longer. If that's difficult for you, treat these as Must Be False EXCEPT questions - rule out anything that breaks a rule, and what's left is something that CBT.


This is really helpful. Do you have any advice for the "complete and accurate list" questions? Rule substitution also take me time, since I feel like I have to redraw the entire diagram.

zaltman
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby zaltman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:50 am

At some point in you're studying you are going to simply start doing nothing but full length practice tests. Obviously while the test is still a ways out you should focus on each type of question and how to tackle it etc but the only way to drastically increase youre speed and lower your fatigue is to take as many full length tests as possible.

You should spend 2-3 weeks before the exam taking a full length test every other day and maybe reviewing your answers/working on the questions you commonly get wrong on the off days. Eventually the test will be like second nature and you will fly through it.

bp shinners
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby bp shinners » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:11 pm

piney wrote:This is really helpful. Do you have any advice for the "complete and accurate list" questions? Rule substitution also take me time, since I feel like I have to redraw the entire diagram.


Oh do I.

We call these elimination questions because the fastest/easiest way to do them is to read a rule, eliminate an answer (or two). Read another rule, eliminate another answer (or two). Do this until only one answer is left. Should take you approx. 20 seconds, if that, to get through it. It's a freebie point, as far as I'm concerned.

As to rule replacements questions, check out my post on it here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=193305&p=5868211#p5868211 (it's towards the bottom).

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buddyt
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby buddyt » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:00 pm

Honestly, if you're shooting for mid-high 170s timed and you're still getting 160s timed, it's gonna be tough to make that happen in less than a month. Your untimed scores are mostly irrelevant if you're deriving a timed score from them, and remember the real thing is very strictly timed. The only thing an untimed score will tell you is your understanding of the concepts of the test.

If you're hitting high 170s untimed, you probably have a good grasp of the fundamentals, so I would abandon all untimed practice and start doing 2-3 PTs a week, thoroughly reviewing questions that were either hard (which hopefully you indicated as you were taking the test) and the ones that you got wrong. Drill question types that you seem to have trouble with. But it might be time to consider either December or sitting out a year if you're not firmly in your desired range come test day.

piney
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby piney » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:31 pm

buddytyler wrote:Honestly, if you're shooting for mid-high 170s timed and you're still getting 160s timed, it's gonna be tough to make that happen in less than a month. Your untimed scores are mostly irrelevant if you're deriving a timed score from them, and remember the real thing is very strictly timed. The only thing an untimed score will tell you is your understanding of the concepts of the test.

If you're hitting high 170s untimed, you probably have a good grasp of the fundamentals, so I would abandon all untimed practice and start doing 2-3 PTs a week, thoroughly reviewing questions that were either hard (which hopefully you indicated as you were taking the test) and the ones that you got wrong. Drill question types that you seem to have trouble with. But it might be time to consider either December or sitting out a year if you're not firmly in your desired range come test day.


I can't really wait another year, and I'm worried about my chances for admission if I wait until December. Could I take the test in October just so I can apply early, then retake in December?

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francesfarmer
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby francesfarmer » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:57 pm

piney wrote:
buddytyler wrote:Honestly, if you're shooting for mid-high 170s timed and you're still getting 160s timed, it's gonna be tough to make that happen in less than a month. Your untimed scores are mostly irrelevant if you're deriving a timed score from them, and remember the real thing is very strictly timed. The only thing an untimed score will tell you is your understanding of the concepts of the test.

If you're hitting high 170s untimed, you probably have a good grasp of the fundamentals, so I would abandon all untimed practice and start doing 2-3 PTs a week, thoroughly reviewing questions that were either hard (which hopefully you indicated as you were taking the test) and the ones that you got wrong. Drill question types that you seem to have trouble with. But it might be time to consider either December or sitting out a year if you're not firmly in your desired range come test day.


I can't really wait another year, and I'm worried about my chances for admission if I wait until December. Could I take the test in October just so I can apply early, then retake in December?


Why can't you wait another year? Waiting is always advisable. You are obviously very intelligent but it will take a lot of time to get your speed up to where it needs to be. If you're PT-ing in the 160s, you can expect to do worse on the real test--this is true for almost everyone, even extremely strong test-takers.

And if you haven't studied with LGB and you still struggle with LG, why are you even planning on taking the LSAT?!

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:38 pm

I think you are pretty unlikely to get significant $ from the T6 with a 3.5 regardless of your LSAT. The caveats are if you're a URM; you apply for NYU's specialized scholarhships; or you have significant financial need (although here you may end up with, like, 40K in grants, the rest loans so not really a huge reduction when the cost is 200K+).

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Br3v
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby Br3v » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:41 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:Don't stare at q... attack it. If the answer isn't readily available on your main diagram, immediately start hypoing.


This was one of the biggest break throughs I had/still working on.


Time is a huge factor in this test and should not be overlooked in your study

piney
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby piney » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:59 pm

I have studied with LGB. I finished using it in June or July, but didn't find it that helpful in certain areas. As for why I can't wait, I'll be 28 next year, and would have a hard time supporting myself financially for the next two years without a better job. That's why I need to apply now.

My speed has increased recently, just not enough. Logic games that used to take me ten minutes I can do in five, but there are still some games that stop me in my tracks and take a lot of time. As for LR, I realized a lot of time was wasted second guessing myself and rereading stimuli, so if I just answer the question and move on, I have time to spare.

I have pretty serious ADHD, which is part of why I can't finish in time, but even if I could get LSAC to give me extra time, I don't want an asterisk next to my score. An untimed score isn't included in the "average LSAT" adcoms report, so matter how high you score, there's no way an untimed LSAT would compensate for a mediocre GPA and might be ignored.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby francesfarmer » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:41 pm

piney wrote:I have studied with LGB. I finished using it in June or July, but didn't find it that helpful in certain areas. As for why I can't wait, I'll be 28 next year, and would have a hard time supporting myself financially for the next two years without a better job. That's why I need to apply now.

My speed has increased recently, just not enough. Logic games that used to take me ten minutes I can do in five, but there are still some games that stop me in my tracks and take a lot of time. As for LR, I realized a lot of time was wasted second guessing myself and rereading stimuli, so if I just answer the question and move on, I have time to spare.

I have pretty serious ADHD, which is part of why I can't finish in time, but even if I could get LSAC to give me extra time, I don't want an asterisk next to my score. An untimed score isn't included in the "average LSAT" adcoms report, so matter how high you score, there's no way an untimed LSAT would compensate for a mediocre GPA and might be ignored.


As for your ADHD, are you on meds? Could you get those meds adjusted? I have ADD and meds did not help me because I had the opposite problem from you in that I was way too fast and that would cause me to make mistakes. So if you're not on meds or on a low dose of meds, maybe try to get more? I'm assuming that you can take meds you are prescribed to take during the LSAT, right?

christinenyoung
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Re: Scoring high but running out of time

Postby christinenyoung » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 pm

I'm going to second that you should be drilling.

I highly recommend 10 LSATs separated by question type by Manhattan.

http://www.amazon.com/Real-LSATs-Groupe ... attan+lsat

$35 on Amazon, but after each and every I had even a little difficulty with I went to the Manhattan forums to see the explanation for the question. IMO this helped a lot of LR. For LG.. it's drilling, so you should see an improvement nonetheless.




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