Logic Games without diagramming.

User avatar
CardozoLaw09
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:58 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:47 pm

^^ (..too lazy to do the quote thing)

You customized your diagrams? Can you give an example of how or what you did exactly? Personally I've always thought that the methods that we've learnt are as compressed and efficient as they can get. But I guess not!

User avatar
The Platypus
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:59 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby The Platypus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:51 pm

hblake wrote:Anyone do this?


Yes, they're attending Cooley Law School.

User avatar
BallHog
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 4:20 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby BallHog » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:04 pm

hblake wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Srs: You're question is no different from "Can we do RC without knowing English?"


You were joking at first. This doesn't sound like a joke. So now that you're serious, you should know I'm doing them without diagrams and am improving on my accuracy. Yes it's slower at first, but accuracy first eh?


Probably because the diagrams you were doing before sucked.

User avatar
cc.celina
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby cc.celina » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:10 pm

CardozoLaw09 wrote:^^ (..too lazy to do the quote thing)

You customized your diagrams? Can you give an example of how or what you did exactly? Personally I've always thought that the methods that we've learnt are as compressed and efficient as they can get. But I guess not!

Well, I didn't stray TOO far away from the methods. Except on sequencing games - I'm not sure how exactly LGB diagrammed them, but I remember it not working for me at all. My sequencing diagrams were basically just clouds of letters with lines connecting them, and none of those silly carrot marks.

Beyond that, nothing really drastic. Just small changes in notation that made more intuitive sense to me. I'm pretty sure I also borrowed a couple of Velocity's ways to diagram stuff at some point. If the current diagramming system works for you, stick with it.

User avatar
CardozoLaw09
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:58 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:20 pm

cc.celina wrote:
CardozoLaw09 wrote:^^ (..too lazy to do the quote thing)

You customized your diagrams? Can you give an example of how or what you did exactly? Personally I've always thought that the methods that we've learnt are as compressed and efficient as they can get. But I guess not!

Well, I didn't stray TOO far away from the methods. Except on sequencing games - I'm not sure how exactly LGB diagrammed them, but I remember it not working for me at all. My sequencing diagrams were basically just clouds of letters with lines connecting them, and none of those silly carrot marks.

Beyond that, nothing really drastic. Just small changes in notation that made more intuitive sense to me. I'm pretty sure I also borrowed a couple of Velocity's ways to diagram stuff at some point. If the current diagramming system works for you, stick with it.


True.

snehpets
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby snehpets » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:42 am

Yeah I agree with cc completely (also pretty sure she got like a 178 fwiw). I learned to do the in depth, somewhat unnecessarily detailed until I was doing really awesome with those, which eventually led to me being able to diagram some things less than others, or customizing my diagrams in a way that made sense to me. I doubt I followed the methods on my real LSAT in terms of what the diagram physically looked like but I definitely used the underlying concepts gleaned from long periods of time spent following the diagramming guidelines strictly.

User avatar
PeanutsNJam
Posts: 3699
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:43 am

I studied the Powerscore LG Bible and made my own variations of the diagramming techniques. I make up the diagram as I go and I don't categorize games such as "binary" or "grouping"; after doing a couple games it becomes somewhat intuitive. I consistently get -0 to -2 on the games timed (-0 more often than -2).

I'm not going to make sweeping generalizations like saying "you can't get -0 in 35 mins without diagrams" (although I don't believe anybody who isn't autistic or something similar can do that). I'll just say "it's substantially easier to get -0 in 35 mins with diagrams than it is without".

If your average TLS lsat taker (average being like a 170 guy) tried to get a -10 on a LG section, he'd finish the section in 15 minutes. Just do the first 15 questions (usually much easier than the later questions).

There is no humblebragging going on, because there is nothing to brag about.

It just sounds like this guy is looking for:

- An easier way to do LG games
- A way to avoid studying and learning diagramming techniques and its usefulness

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:54 am

You know, not having read Powerscore and much else other than the TLS articles, stickies, and various experiences, it hasn't really got stuck in my brain that I need to diagram everything. Now that I'm getting perfect scores on untimed tests, it is time to look at what is necessary to keep those scores when on a time limit.

It was interesting to consider what Celina wrote about minimizing brain power or stress on LGs to conserve energy for the other parts of the test. Of course, everyone probably customizes their diagrams.

Will report back if I have experiences that deem diagrams unnecessary, or if, like the test says, "in answering some of the questions, it may be useful to draw a rough diagram." In that case I will be sure to relate what I find.

Can someone answer this question?: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=190528

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:59 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:I studied the Powerscore LG Bible and made my own variations of the diagramming techniques.


I see.

I'm not going to make sweeping generalizations like saying "you can't get -0 in 35 mins without diagrams" (although I don't believe anybody who isn't autistic or something similar can do that). I'll just say "it's substantially easier to get -0 in 35 mins with diagrams than it is without".


You know, math doesn't require pictures.

If your average TLS lsat taker (average being like a 170 guy) tried to get a -10 on a LG section, he'd finish the section in 15 minutes. Just do the first 15 questions (usually much easier than the later questions).


Average is 170 eh?

There is no humblebragging going on, because there is nothing to brag about.

It just sounds like this guy is looking for:

- An easier way to do LG games
- A way to avoid studying and learning diagramming techniques and its usefulness


I'm the OP you realize. And I don't personally know anyone who studies like I do on anything. That's why I come on the internet, to find people who both work like dogs and think outside the box.

User avatar
cc.celina
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby cc.celina » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:00 am

Please read the powerscore bible. No wonder your diagrams aren't helping you. You can get it HERE for only $34, and if you are REALLY low on cash, buy it used for $18. Very small investment for huge improvement in your LG score.

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:21 am

.
Last edited by hblake on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bgibbs
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:07 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Bgibbs » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:00 am

tomwatts wrote:I did have a student once who drew an initial setup and then nothing else. He'd just draw the list of numbers or the groups, and then he'd do the rest in his head. And he got most of them right.

I mean, I had a few students who tried to do this sort of thing. He was the only one who didn't crash and burn doing it.


I do this and then will sometimes write out a few scenarios depending on the question...far from the crazy detailed diagrams some use, but yet far from doing it entirely in my head. I really don't think that method is feasible with the timeframe you're forced to work with. OP, this topic is really just a failed humblebrag. No one cares if you can do them in your head because there's no reason to. Especially when you're going -10 doing so.

bruss
Posts: 470
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 3:58 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby bruss » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:01 am

Bgibbs wrote: OP, this topic is really just a failed humblebrag. No one cares if you can do them in your head because there's no reason to. Especially when you're going -10 doing so.

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:14 am

Bgibbs wrote:I do this and then will sometimes write out a few scenarios depending on the question...far from the crazy detailed diagrams some use, but yet far from doing it entirely in my head. I really don't think that method is feasible with the timeframe you're forced to work with. OP, this topic is really just a failed humblebrag. No one cares if you can do them in your head because there's no reason to. Especially when you're going -10 doing so.


Diagrams aren't helping me. Hard to improve when they look like everyone else's, and when I look at them during the test I get the sense I'm distracting myself more than working out a problem.

Right now I'm kind of burned out, but one thing I noticed when I started doing them mentally was all simple stuff I had been missing. So if there are diagrams that help internalize the rules I'll use them, because with or without diagrams it's those rules that make the logic flow, not lines and arrows.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Clearly » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:25 am

Alright. Chiming in. Gonna try to be helpful.
1) More so than any other chapter ever, untimed logic games are useless after the first week. LR and RC if you don't get it, you don't get it. LG if you don't get it, you try it until it works. Logic games sections DON'T test your ability to process logic. They test your ability to work efficiently. Untimed, ANYONE, trained or not, my grandma for instance, could 100% LG.

As far as doing them in your head, I would say its absurd, however a great many questions CAN be answered in your head, after doing a few with a diagram. I would say 1-2 per game I never even move my pencil for. This is after I have done a few directive questions (If...) using my diagram.. By this point I usually have the rules memorized, and will usually see either A) A question in which my previous work rules out 4 answer choices, or conclusively shows one to be correct or B) A question so simple that I can work thru it with my memorized rules quickly. This happens at least once in practically every LG.


As to your thinking, you're crazy. A diagram is supposed to be a simplistic representation of your THOUGHTS on the game. You chart it to organize the work your brain is doing. If your not diagramming on paper, you are literally just imagining your diagram internally. One way or another you need a system to organize the elements, be it on paper, or in your head. Your paper diagram should literally just aid you in organizing the elements. It's NOT a formula, you don't punch in the rules and elements, and have it spit out the answers. I think you are disappointed with diagrams because you think it's a magic illustration that should solve these things for you. It's an organizational tool...To organize your thoughts...the same thoughts you would be having without a diagram, just with no where to put them.

Your options are
Use your brain and use paper
or use your brain.

If you're thinking taking the paper out of the equation will make a difference, I suggest you look at the other element in question. You don't know how to solve logic games. It's okay, many many people struggle with them. Learn how to think about them, then learn how to efficiently display those thoughts on paper (to make thinking about them easier), then learn how to answer the questions about those thoughts. stop looking at diagrams to do more than what they are there to do...Help your brain remember what it's doing, Provide a place to test what it's thinking, and most importantly, provide a record of whats been done that will almost always answer a second question you didn't even realize you were working on yet.

An analogy if you will. You are a carpenter with a hammer, who doesn't know how to build a house. You seem to think that if you didn't have the hammer, you'd be better at building houses.

Anyone smart enough to do LG without a diagram, is also smart enough to know he should use a diagram anyway.

Good luck brother, I hope I wasn't too cruel here, I'm really not trying to be. I just wanted to put diagramming in context here.

User avatar
espressocream
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:51 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby espressocream » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:35 am

What Stefan said.

There will be some questions where you don't need to diagram, but those jump out at you after
a lot of drilling. You're really just wasting time by trying to circumvent the
grunt work that comes with studying for this test.

Use diagrams and end this thread. Please.

User avatar
Honey_Badger
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Honey_Badger » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:26 am

espressocream wrote:What Stefan said.

There will be some questions where you don't need to diagram, but those jump out at you after
a lot of drilling. You're really just wasting time by trying to circumvent the
grunt work that comes with studying for this test.

Use diagrams and end this thread. Please.


+1,000

Why don't you try different methods of diagramming, OP? (i.e.: Velocity-very few "forms" of diagramming, and apparently helpful to many people on this board.
If you aren;t willing to try everything out there, go ahead and do it in your head.

User avatar
PeanutsNJam
Posts: 3699
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:29 am

Math doesn't require diagrams?

Dude, in LG, diagrams is work. Try to do Calc 2 or 3 level math in your head. You can't. You have to write it down. If math = LG, then writing shit down = diagramming.

Clearlynotstefan wrote:As to your thinking, you're crazy. A diagram is supposed to be a simplistic representation of your THOUGHTS on the game. You chart it to organize the work your brain is doing. If your not diagramming on paper, you are literally just imagining your diagram internally. One way or another you need a system to organize the elements, be it on paper, or in your head. Your paper diagram should literally just aid you in organizing the elements. It's NOT a formula, you don't punch in the rules and elements, and have it spit out the answers. I think you are disappointed with diagrams because you think it's a magic illustration that should solve these things for you. It's an organizational tool...To organize your thoughts...the same thoughts you would be having without a diagram, just with no where to put them.

Your options are
Use your brain and use paper
or use your brain.

If you're thinking taking the paper out of the equation will make a difference, I suggest you look at the other element in question. You don't know how to solve logic games. It's okay, many many people struggle with them. Learn how to think about them, then learn how to efficiently display those thoughts on paper (to make thinking about them easier), then learn how to answer the questions about those thoughts. stop looking at diagrams to do more than what they are there to do...Help your brain remember what it's doing, Provide a place to test what it's thinking, and most importantly, provide a record of whats been done that will almost always answer a second question you didn't even realize you were working on yet.

An analogy if you will. You are a carpenter with a hammer, who doesn't know how to build a house. You seem to think that if you didn't have the hammer, you'd be better at building houses.

Anyone smart enough to do LG without a diagram, is also smart enough to know he should use a diagram anyway.

Good luck brother, I hope I wasn't too cruel here, I'm really not trying to be. I just wanted to put diagramming in context here.


You win many internetz. Grats.

Just to illustrate the point: a "box" that says something like "A must be in the same group as B" isn't part of a formula; it's a notation to help you remember. Now, if you can perfectly remember all the rules after reading them once, then more power to you (Mike Ross can!). However, if you're a mere mortal, it's easier to look at A and B boxed together than sift through the list of rules looking to see whether it was "A must be in the same group as B" or "A must come before B" or "B must come before A."

JohnV
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:29 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby JohnV » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:16 am

hblake wrote:I've been running into questions that defy diagrams. Even without being on the clock they've mocked any attempt at resolution pictorially, at least within my skill set. Preptest 13 LG was completed practically without a picture drawn, and except for one stupid mistake and the last question on PT 14 I've had success without diagrams - meaning perfect scores, though not timed. Even timing is improving, though. I expect some combination of thought-strategizing and pictoralizing might be necessary on some questions if not some sections, but why not focus on where the operations are actually happening - in your head - than on the tool you're using to memorize the rules of those operations? Who actually traces those arrows anyway?


Almost fell for the troll, but you won't get me, not today.

hblake wrote:
Average is 170 eh?


Lmfao. Yes, a 170 is the average test score.

User avatar
PeanutsNJam
Posts: 3699
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:33 am

He missed the part where I said "about the average of the posters on tls"

bp shinners
Posts: 3091
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:05 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby bp shinners » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:28 pm

Matt Riley. He writes our Games curriculum. Watching him do a new LG is surreal. He'll sit there, read the intro, and start circling answer choices. The right ones.

User avatar
PeanutsNJam
Posts: 3699
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:45 pm

bp shinners wrote:Matt Riley. He writes our Games curriculum. Watching him do a new LG is surreal. He'll sit there, read the intro, and start circling answer choices. The right ones.


Wouldn't be surprised if that's something you do for a living.

User avatar
mindarmed
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:16 pm

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby mindarmed » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:57 pm

bp shinners wrote:Matt Riley. He writes our Games curriculum. Watching him do a new LG is surreal. He'll sit there, read the intro, and start circling answer choices. The right ones.


That's absurd, I started off with getting -0 and -1 on LG without reading the LGB or any of that stuff, just based on comparing the games to stuff I've learned in college and I don't think I would ever be able to do that.

User avatar
chill
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:55 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby chill » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:26 pm

.
Last edited by chill on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

JohnV
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:29 am

Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby JohnV » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:43 pm

chill wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:
bp shinners wrote:Matt Riley. He writes our Games curriculum. Watching him do a new LG is surreal. He'll sit there, read the intro, and start circling answer choices. The right ones.


That's absurd, I started off with getting -0 and -1 on LG without reading the LGB or any of that stuff, just based on comparing the games to stuff I've learned in college and I don't think I would ever be able to do that.


I've worked as an LSAT tutor for the past year, and I do them without diagrams now. After spending so much time diagramming every game over and over, it just becomes really easy to figure out what's actually going to matter. I actually have a bunch as pdfs on my Kindle, where I absolutely can't use a diagram, and doing them in my head is a really fun way to kill a plane ride.

That being said, I can't imagine trying to do LR without marking the page.

ETA: the really hard questions are the "if ___, how many possible orders are there?/___ could be in what number of positions" type. Those'd be great to have hypos written out for.

ETA 2: Really, don't do this unless you're bored at work and are trying to up the challenge of LG's. I diagrammed every game for the first year, then started to notice I was doing more in my head and decided to see if I could do a whole one in my head. Now, it's a masochistic habit I've developed.


It's not so much "can you do them in your head", given enough time many people could go -0 on LG without writing anything down. It's "should this be something even considered for the actual test".




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexandros, Binghamton1018, cherrygalore, dj9i27, foodlaw, gwillygecko, Hikikomorist, LAW1995, maybeman, nimbus cloud, Pozzo, SunDevil14 and 20 guests