Logic Games without diagramming.

hblake
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Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:20 pm

Anyone do this?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:24 pm

Will Hunting, possibly.

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LionelHutzJD
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby LionelHutzJD » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:25 pm

Yes.........no

JohnV
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby JohnV » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:38 pm

I do. I don't even read the set up, I just answer the question based off a highly complex and evolved method of reasoning that very few human minds can begin to comprehend.

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Mr. Frodo
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Mr. Frodo » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:38 pm

Why bother :roll:

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:16 pm

What's diagramming? Aren't you supposed to do it in your head? It's pretty easy once you learn the trick to it.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:19 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Will Hunting, possibly.


And Michael Ross. Dat photographic memory.

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Mr. Frodo
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Mr. Frodo » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:25 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:What's diagramming? Aren't you supposed to do it in your head? It's pretty easy once you learn the trick to it.


I just use my calculator to solve logic games.

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heebie-jeebies
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby heebie-jeebies » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:06 pm

hblake wrote:Anyone do this?


Yes.

Anyone do this and get a good score?

No.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:35 pm

Bro since you asked, the trick is to break into the LSAC HQ, get the test before hand, show it to your friend who is really good at logic games, have him tell you all the answers, memorize them, and then go take the test. Don't need diagrams.

Srs: You're question is no different from "Can we do RC without knowing English?"

hblake
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:27 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Srs: You're question is no different from "Can we do RC without knowing English?"


You were joking at first. This doesn't sound like a joke. So now that you're serious, you should know I'm doing them without diagrams and am improving on my accuracy. Yes it's slower at first, but accuracy first eh?

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Verity
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Verity » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:38 pm

hblake wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Srs: You're question is no different from "Can we do RC without knowing English?"


You were joking at first. This doesn't sound like a joke. So now that you're serious, you should know I'm doing them without diagrams and am improving on my accuracy. Yes it's slower at first, but accuracy first eh?


Talk about a half-ass humblebrag.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:44 pm

"Improvement"? -20 to -18 is improvement too. You're never gonna get more than half the questions right without diagrams. You're trying to find an "easier way" to do LG. There isn't an "easier way." There is no trick. There is only hard work and practice.

hblake
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:52 pm

I've been running into questions that defy diagrams. Even without being on the clock they've mocked any attempt at resolution pictorially, at least within my skill set. Preptest 13 LG was completed practically without a picture drawn, and except for one stupid mistake and the last question on PT 14 I've had success without diagrams - meaning perfect scores, though not timed. Even timing is improving, though. I expect some combination of thought-strategizing and pictoralizing might be necessary on some questions if not some sections, but why not focus on where the operations are actually happening - in your head - than on the tool you're using to memorize the rules of those operations? Who actually traces those arrows anyway?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:42 pm

Damn, I already hate the OP. I suppose it's possible to do it in your head if you're familiar with it, but what's the point? Your humblebragging is obnoxious.

tomwatts
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby tomwatts » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:51 pm

I did have a student once who drew an initial setup and then nothing else. He'd just draw the list of numbers or the groups, and then he'd do the rest in his head. And he got most of them right.

I mean, I had a few students who tried to do this sort of thing. He was the only one who didn't crash and burn doing it.

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cc.celina
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby cc.celina » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:15 pm

"That's a great idea," said nobody ever.

hblake wrote:I've been running into questions that defy diagrams. Even without being on the clock they've mocked any attempt at resolution pictorially, at least within my skill set. Preptest 13 LG was completed practically without a picture drawn, and except for one stupid mistake and the last question on PT 14 I've had success without diagrams - meaning perfect scores, though not timed. Even timing is improving, though. I expect some combination of thought-strategizing and pictoralizing might be necessary on some questions if not some sections, but why not focus on where the operations are actually happening - in your head - than on the tool you're using to memorize the rules of those operations? Who actually traces those arrows anyway?

Then stop doing ancient PTs. Really old PTs (below 19) are strange and you can use them to brush up on your logic but don't expect this method to be applicable on test day. Try this on a PT from 40 and up and see if it works. It doesn't, because they're based on sketching a lot of hypotheticals and you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you try to handicap yourself like that. No one thinks this is a good idea.

Do an LG section from PTs 60-66 without a diagram and report back to us.

snehpets
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby snehpets » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:23 pm

hblake wrote: Even without being on the clock they've mocked any attempt at resolution pictorially, at least within my skill set. Preptest 13 LG was completed practically without a picture drawn, and except for one stupid mistake and the last question on PT 14 I've had success without diagrams - meaning perfect scores, though not timed. Even timing is improving, though. I expect some combination of thought-strategizing and pictoralizing might be necessary on some questions if not some sections, but why not focus on where the operations are actually happening - in your head - than on the tool you're using to memorize the rules of those operations? Who actually traces those arrows anyway?


Your skill set is lacking.

I'm not saying you have to exactly follow the guidelines for diagramming on test day but you're dumb if you try to do it without some level of diagramming. The vast majority of the people on this site could get a perfect LG score without timing even if they couldn't diagram but who cares since it IS timed?

Also, what cc said

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:41 pm


hblake
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:02 pm

Tried PT #65. 45 min, -10, score of 13.
Last edited by hblake on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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heebie-jeebies
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby heebie-jeebies » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:07 pm

hblake wrote:I've been running into questions that defy diagrams. Even without being on the clock they've mocked any attempt at resolution pictorially, at least within my skill set.


Keep at it; you'll get it eventually!
Last edited by heebie-jeebies on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

hblake
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:12 pm

.
Last edited by hblake on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hblake
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby hblake » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:21 pm

.
Last edited by hblake on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Verity
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby Verity » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:28 pm

I no longer understand the point of this thread.

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cc.celina
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Re: Logic Games without diagramming.

Postby cc.celina » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:35 pm

OK. You do not have to listen to me, so I will only say this and then be out. My best advice would be to start off using a method of diagramming that may not be the fastest, but that gets you the right answer every time. Then, as you drill more, you can start writing out less and less of the diagram. My diagrams on test day were much more minimalist and shorthand than the LG Bible's were. This is partly because the LGB purposely draws detailed diagrams for people who are new to logic games and are just learning the system, and partly because as you get better, you can start customizing your diagram so it is quicker to write and more understandable to you. The "How I got a 180" articles here on TLS are very helpful in that regard.

In my opinion, it is much easier to start with a cumbersome but thorough diagram and streamline it with practice than it is to start completely without a diagram and try to build up the important info and juggle it in your head. If parts of the diagram are distracting to you, I suggest that this is simply because you are not used to them. Logic games do take a good amount of time to get used to. You shouldn't give up on a tried-and-true method simply because you find it difficult at first.

If you have a savant-like level of logical thinking, then you're right, it is probably faster to do games without a diagram. But if you are like 99.9% of the rest of the population, writing things down is going to make things vastly easier for you once you get used to it. You may be able to get everything right sans diagram, but the advantage of a diagram is that it lets you essentially STOP THINKING during a game. You can simply plug and chug letters into your diagram without worrying about what they mean or whether you've forgotten other rules. This helps you finish on time and helps you conserve some brainpower for the other 4 sections of the test.

Give diagramming a chance, I am fairly confident that it will help you get a good score once you get used to it. You can certainly customize and minimize your diagrams, but the basic structure should still be there, and every rule should be represented in some way. I understand that it is distracting right now - obviously I don't know how much you've prepped, but I'm assuming you haven't done most of the LG sections. I didn't start to master diagramming until I had done about 20+ LG sections. The key here is patience.

Take or leave my advice as you will. Good luck!




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