how does society view the lsat?

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spleenworship
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby spleenworship » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:27 pm

hibiki wrote:I'm sorry, but people think that the LSAT and MCAT are comparable? This is pretty funny. :lol: I know a lot of people struggle getting their 170+ or 175+ score, but I have a hard time believing that people can make these comparisons earnestly. I've never looked at the MCAT and I'm certain it is more difficult than the LSAT.



Meh. I took a practice MCAT before taking a practice LSAT back when I was considering medical school. I had taken some pre-med, but no orgo and no physics. My score on that was in a similar percentile to my diagnostic score on the LSAT. I agree with the above posters that it really does test different things. MCAT is more about memorization, LSAT is more about logical reasoning. But I'm not sure that makes the MCAT harder, per se. It is just an apples and oranges thing. I would put them on the same amount of "difficulty" I guess, though I think this whole comparing thing is probably dumb. I mean, who gives a flying fart? Most doctors are smart, but most aren't geniuses. Most lawyers are smart, but most aren't geniuses. Is there really any point in comparing size to see who has the bigger one when we are all above average and have enough to get the job done?

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Postby PourMeTea » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:27 pm

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JazzOne
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:54 pm

TheWeeIceMon wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:Are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? So you're saying that pre-law students can dominate the MCAT/science classes, but the LSAT is beyond the intellectual capacity of pre-med students?

Having taught LSAT and MCAT for years, I would basically agree with that generalization. LSAT students tend to be quite analytical and capable of adapting to new topics or contexts. In contrast, when MCAT students are presented with something unfamiliar, their intelligence can fade very quickly (e.g., the verbal reasoning section just destroys some pretty knowledgeable kids). Obviously not true for everyone, but that's my observation based on 8 years of teaching test prep.

I also think the LSAT is more difficult than the MCAT. It is a tough comparison, though, considering how much background knowledge is necessary to even comprehend a science passage. It's easy to take that knowledge for granted when you've spent years acquiring it little by little.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I am underestimating the massive intellectual capability of pre-law students.

It's not that I think pre-law students have massive intellectual capability. I do think, however, that UG science courses reward discipline and memorization as opposed to analytical thinking.

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sf88
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby sf88 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:21 pm

I was considering med school for a while and graduated with an English/Lit double major and biology minor. Decided to go the law school route, but took most of the courses necessary for med school admissions and did well. I took a practice MCAT cold and did fine. With study and practice, I definitely could have scored quite well. I scored a 168 on the LSAT (which I wasn't too happy with). It's all about different skill sets. I'm sure there's 170+ LSAT scorers who wouldn't do well on the MCAT or science/math courses, and there's some sciencey people who might not be able to do that well on the LSAT.

I think one of the biggest differences between law and med school admissions is the GPA and prerequisite coursework requirements. It's honestly not that hard to get a competitive (3.6+) GPA in a humanities major, but you have to work pretty hard to get that same GPA in a science major. Getting an A in OChem and an A in English Renaissance Lit are two entirely different achievements.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:18 pm

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Last edited by cahwc12 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:22 pm

sf88 wrote:I was considering med school for a while and graduated with an English/Lit double major and biology minor. Decided to go the law school route, but took most of the courses necessary for med school admissions and did well. I took a practice MCAT cold and did fine. With study and practice, I definitely could have scored quite well. I scored a 168 on the LSAT (which I wasn't too happy with). It's all about different skill sets. I'm sure there's 170+ LSAT scorers who wouldn't do well on the MCAT or science/math courses, and there's some sciencey people who might not be able to do that well on the LSAT.

I think one of the biggest differences between law and med school admissions is the GPA and prerequisite coursework requirements. It's honestly not that hard to get a competitive (3.6+) GPA in a humanities major, but you have to work pretty hard to get that same GPA in a science major. Getting an A in OChem and an A in English Renaissance Lit are two entirely different achievements.



While I am definitely in the camp that thinks MCAT and science courses in general are much more difficult than humanities / LSAT, I think at my state university getting an A in OChem would have been easier and potentially less work than getting an A in English Renaissance Lit.

I took OChem withotu any prereqs at my uni and had one of the top scores on our first tests, 87/110, and it was curved such that 70 was an A. In fairness though I studied pretty hard for that test.

I signed up for and planned to take a creative science fiction novella writing class (senior-level, without any major requirements), and was told that due to rampant grade inflation in the english department, only 5 of 23 students could make A's. I dropped the class during add/drop week because I thought that was a stupid policy.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:16 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
sf88 wrote:I was considering med school for a while and graduated with an English/Lit double major and biology minor. Decided to go the law school route, but took most of the courses necessary for med school admissions and did well. I took a practice MCAT cold and did fine. With study and practice, I definitely could have scored quite well. I scored a 168 on the LSAT (which I wasn't too happy with). It's all about different skill sets. I'm sure there's 170+ LSAT scorers who wouldn't do well on the MCAT or science/math courses, and there's some sciencey people who might not be able to do that well on the LSAT.

I think one of the biggest differences between law and med school admissions is the GPA and prerequisite coursework requirements. It's honestly not that hard to get a competitive (3.6+) GPA in a humanities major, but you have to work pretty hard to get that same GPA in a science major. Getting an A in OChem and an A in English Renaissance Lit are two entirely different achievements.



While I am definitely in the camp that thinks MCAT and science courses in general are much more difficult than humanities / LSAT, I think at my state university getting an A in OChem would have been easier and potentially less work than getting an A in English Renaissance Lit.

I took OChem withotu any prereqs at my uni and had one of the top scores on our first tests, 87/110, and it was curved such that 70 was an A. In fairness though I studied pretty hard for that test.

I signed up for and planned to take a creative science fiction novella writing class (senior-level, without any major requirements), and was told that due to rampant grade inflation in the english department, only 5 of 23 students could make A's. I dropped the class during add/drop week because I thought that was a stupid policy.

Isn't that pretty much the exact same policy as a curved OChem class?

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby hopper123 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:23 pm

JazzOne wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
sf88 wrote:I was considering med school for a while and graduated with an English/Lit double major and biology minor. Decided to go the law school route, but took most of the courses necessary for med school admissions and did well. I took a practice MCAT cold and did fine. With study and practice, I definitely could have scored quite well. I scored a 168 on the LSAT (which I wasn't too happy with). It's all about different skill sets. I'm sure there's 170+ LSAT scorers who wouldn't do well on the MCAT or science/math courses, and there's some sciencey people who might not be able to do that well on the LSAT.

I think one of the biggest differences between law and med school admissions is the GPA and prerequisite coursework requirements. It's honestly not that hard to get a competitive (3.6+) GPA in a humanities major, but you have to work pretty hard to get that same GPA in a science major. Getting an A in OChem and an A in English Renaissance Lit are two entirely different achievements.



While I am definitely in the camp that thinks MCAT and science courses in general are much more difficult than humanities / LSAT, I think at my state university getting an A in OChem would have been easier and potentially less work than getting an A in English Renaissance Lit.

I took OChem withotu any prereqs at my uni and had one of the top scores on our first tests, 87/110, and it was curved such that 70 was an A. In fairness though I studied pretty hard for that test.

I signed up for and planned to take a creative science fiction novella writing class (senior-level, without any major requirements), and was told that due to rampant grade inflation in the english department, only 5 of 23 students could make A's. I dropped the class during add/drop week because I thought that was a stupid policy.

Isn't that pretty much the exact same policy as a curved OChem class?


Not exactly. Ochem doesn't necessarily have a limit on how many As it gives, and it's not grade deflated. Putting a cap on how many As can be given is stupid, and in a way this makes humanities more difficult since there is some subjectivity involved. In science courses, if you know what you are doing, you get a good grade. In humanities, you can be awesome for one instructor and horrible for another, even in the same subject. I should mention that I did have some science courses where the instructors did not grade inflate at all. I happened to see all the grades after a particular class, and the highest grade awarded was a B, and while that was the genuine grade the student deserved, the instructor did not curve that B into an A, which means she actually gave no one in the class over a B.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:39 pm

hopper123 wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
sf88 wrote:I was considering med school for a while and graduated with an English/Lit double major and biology minor. Decided to go the law school route, but took most of the courses necessary for med school admissions and did well. I took a practice MCAT cold and did fine. With study and practice, I definitely could have scored quite well. I scored a 168 on the LSAT (which I wasn't too happy with). It's all about different skill sets. I'm sure there's 170+ LSAT scorers who wouldn't do well on the MCAT or science/math courses, and there's some sciencey people who might not be able to do that well on the LSAT.

I think one of the biggest differences between law and med school admissions is the GPA and prerequisite coursework requirements. It's honestly not that hard to get a competitive (3.6+) GPA in a humanities major, but you have to work pretty hard to get that same GPA in a science major. Getting an A in OChem and an A in English Renaissance Lit are two entirely different achievements.



While I am definitely in the camp that thinks MCAT and science courses in general are much more difficult than humanities / LSAT, I think at my state university getting an A in OChem would have been easier and potentially less work than getting an A in English Renaissance Lit.

I took OChem withotu any prereqs at my uni and had one of the top scores on our first tests, 87/110, and it was curved such that 70 was an A. In fairness though I studied pretty hard for that test.

I signed up for and planned to take a creative science fiction novella writing class (senior-level, without any major requirements), and was told that due to rampant grade inflation in the english department, only 5 of 23 students could make A's. I dropped the class during add/drop week because I thought that was a stupid policy.

Isn't that pretty much the exact same policy as a curved OChem class?


Not exactly. Ochem doesn't necessarily have a limit on how many As it gives, and it's not grade deflated. Putting a cap on how many As can be given is stupid, and in a way this makes humanities more difficult since there is some subjectivity involved. In science courses, if you know what you are doing, you get a good grade. In humanities, you can be awesome for one instructor and horrible for another, even in the same subject. I should mention that I did have some science courses where the instructors did not grade inflate at all. I happened to see all the grades after a particular class, and the highest grade awarded was a B, and while that was the genuine grade the student deserved, the instructor did not curve that B into an A, which means she actually gave no one in the class over a B.

If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined the cutoff for that many A's after the exam was scored.

If capping the number of A's is stupid, you're going to be miserable in law school.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:53 pm

JazzOne wrote:If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined what score would be the cutoff for that number of students.



Well the problem is three-fold. You've got a pre-determined cutoff, which is absolutely stupid, and then you have two subjective means of curving--one where you curve so that the class fits the bell, and the other where you curve based on what the students deserve relative to what they scored. The latter usually results when a professor has unreasonably difficult tests or things of that nature. It happens, and as someone who has made tests for others and thought they were much easier than they turned out to be (ridiculously difficult for students I thought were well above average), I am fine with the latter but mostly against the former.

For example, I took a class on optics, considered at my university to be the most difficult physics class for undergraduates, and 85 was an A, which I barely got (65 was a B- and 59 was F). I worked harder than any class I had ever had, and do feel I deserved that A.

Conversely, OChem is usually the class that breaks pre-med majors and forces them to change to business or marketing-- it's no walk in the park, but whereas my optics class had 23 bright-eyed and hard-working engineering and physics majors (and one science education major who held her own), my Ochem class had about 150 students, most of them having absolutely no business being in there. My 87 on that first ochem test felt like a B relative to the work I put in (I studied pretty hard, but I mean... I had no pre-reqs and could have done a lot more). To know it was an A++++ and like the third highest in a class of 150? That kind of curving is just grade inflation.

I guess my point in all this is that I think insofar as you can compare MCAT to LSAT, and you can compare difficulty of coursework between sciences and humanities, I'm not sure you can really compare A's in one class to A's in another (which is what it seemed like we were intimating with curving being the same). It's not just subject, but professor- and university-dependent as well.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby hopper123 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:55 pm

JazzOne wrote:If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined the cutoff for that many A's after the exam was scored.

If capping the number of A's is stupid, you're going to be miserable in law school.


Again, not exactly. Perhaps they settled it BEFORE the exam (and in fact, in the ochem classes I took, that was the case), which means if everyone scored above a 70, the instructor has to give the As. This is very different from saying only 5 out of 20 of you can get As.

There is one law school that doesn't cap and certainly doesn't curve. So no, I won't necessarily be miserable in law school. And yes, I still stand by the idea that capping the number of As handed out is stupid.

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:28 pm

hopper123 wrote:
JazzOne wrote:If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined the cutoff for that many A's after the exam was scored.

If capping the number of A's is stupid, you're going to be miserable in law school.


Again, not exactly. Perhaps they settled it BEFORE the exam (and in fact, in the ochem classes I took, that was the case), which means if everyone scored above a 70, the instructor has to give the As. This is very different from saying only 5 out of 20 of you can get As.

There is one law school that doesn't cap and certainly doesn't curve. So no, I won't necessarily be miserable in law school. And yes, I still stand by the idea that capping the number of As handed out is stupid.

I'm not defending a curve. But it's pointless to be upset about it unless you can get into Yale. Good luck to you if you have the credentials for that.

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05062014
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby 05062014 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:49 am

.

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romothesavior
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:49 am

abdistotle wrote:.

ok

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby 05062014 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:50 am

romothesavior wrote:
abdistotle wrote:.

ok


good

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:13 pm

hopper123 wrote:
JazzOne wrote:If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined the cutoff for that many A's after the exam was scored.

If capping the number of A's is stupid, you're going to be miserable in law school.


Again, not exactly. Perhaps they settled it BEFORE the exam (and in fact, in the ochem classes I took, that was the case), which means if everyone scored above a 70, the instructor has to give the As. This is very different from saying only 5 out of 20 of you can get As.

There is one law school that doesn't cap and certainly doesn't curve. So no, I won't necessarily be miserable in law school. And yes, I still stand by the idea that capping the number of As handed out is stupid.




Jazz is right. Apart from Yale, even Northeastern has what is effectively a curve with keywords in their notes at the end of the semester. And I woudn't go to Northeastern if I were you. 49.5% Long Term Full Time employement. That's less than a coin flip.

Eff that.

Get used to the curve and just move on with your life (at a better school)(unless you got into Yale).

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:23 pm

JazzOne wrote:If the class was curved so that 70 and higher equals an A, how do you suppose the instructor settled on a score of 70? He/she probably determined how many A's to give, and then determined the cutoff for that many A's after the exam was scored.

If capping the number of A's is stupid, you're going to be miserable in law school.


In science/math courses, professors will only ever lower the requirement for an A. This is because, on a science exam, it's possible for everybody to get every single question right. There is a definitive right and a definitive wrong and the only room for subjectivity is "credit for work shown." If everybody in the test gets the right answer for every question, then everyone gets 100% and everyone gets an A.

In humanities, nobody can write a perfect paper. There is arguably no such thing as a perfect paper. You can always improve in some way (whereas on a science test, you can get every single question right and there's no way to do better on that test). Because there is no upper limit, it is up to the professor to set the upper limit. In this way, instead of "lowering" the cutoff to allow for more A's, the professor has to very (subjectively) determine what makes a "good/perfect/A quality paper" by comparing the students' papers to each other.

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05062014
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby 05062014 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:54 pm

I am looking for a studi buddy who wants to go for the gold and get dat 180 on LSAT

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NoodleyOne
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby NoodleyOne » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Can we lock this shit topic now?

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05062014
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby 05062014 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:57 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:Can we lock this shit topic now?


Would delete if I could

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cc.celina
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby cc.celina » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:58 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:Can we lock this shit topic now?

Cosigned x 100

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CardozoLaw09
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:05 pm

abdistotle wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:Can we lock this shit topic now?


Would delete if I could


lol

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dowu
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby dowu » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:40 pm

IBTL.

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ru2486
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby ru2486 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:43 pm

my first IBTL post!

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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:45 pm

ru2486 wrote:my first IBTL post!


+1




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