how does society view the lsat?

hopper123
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby hopper123 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 am

ilovelawtays wrote:
shadowofjazz wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:Don't worry about any of that shit and study to make or exceed your target score. All of this extra crap you're talking about is exactly that.

Also in my opinion the MCAT is far more difficult than the LSAT, and I don't think you understand or appreciate just how difficult the MCAT is if you talk about it like that. You can consider most of the concepts of mathematics and science to be "rote memorization" but that doesn't make them easily apprehended.

Rather than brag or boast or care about what other people think about your LSAT studies, shut up and don't talk to them about it and just study for your score.


Having taken both the MCATs and the LSATs and having done well on both, the LSAT required much more preparation for me (~ a full month of study v. 2 weeks for the MCAT). The MCAT in the end boils down to formulas (easily memorized), organic chemistry reactions (easily memorized) and reading comprehension.

Regarding the OP's question, I see something completely different. When I told people I was taking the LSAT, a good majority of them responded with, "I'm pretty sure I would do well on that." o_O I believe some professors that say this, but it seems odd that in my area people think its easy to do well (170+) on the LSAT.

[Edit] I should specify - the LSAT prep was a full month of 12 hours of prep per day. The MCAT prep was about 4 hours per day for 2 weeks.
[Edit 2] I saw another post about science GPAs. For the record, my science GPA is about a 2.6-2.7. Cumulative is 3.1-3.2



2 weeks plus the year or so you spent taking bio, chem, physics, and o-chem.


That's the point! The exam is supposed to test your basic science knowledge. You can't even apply to medical school without those courses, even if you got a perfect on the damn mcat! I took the mcat and lsat as well. The lsat required a hell a lot more time from my end. I think I definitely spent a good couple of years with on and off studying for it, whereas for the mcat it was just a summer (and I did my gen chem and orgo at the same time in one summer, whereas physics and bio were exempt from high school).

TheWeeIceMon wrote:
hopper123 wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
30 MCAT would be 160 LSAT (75th percentile scores).


Uh, not necessarily. Any 2.7 gpa can take the lsat, and many do. Any 2.7 science gpa could take the mcat, but few do.


Uh, quite a few 2.7s take the mcat, do horribly, go carribean/abroad and come back to pass their usmles. If they pass their usmles (on first try), chances are decent they'll become doctors because there is a shortage. Go to your local hospitals and youll find at least one who went to a Ross. They arent very different either. They just sucked at undergrad.

TERS wrote:
romothesavior wrote:LOL @ anyone who thinks the LSAT is harder or even remotely close to the MCAT.


LOL at people who compare the two


To the both of you: have you earned a science degree in biology/engineering/chem/math/phys? If not, the mcat will look wildly strange and difficult to you. If you have an aversion Or distaste towards science, for some strange reason youll treat those who earned those degrees with some mild regard and look at any science test as too difficult therefore worthy of respect.

Ive met quite a few bio kids who pissed on the law, thought the lsat would be a walk in the park, and realized later that it kicked them in the ass. Go look up some md jds too. Notice that they might get into a med school, meaning theydid ok on the mcat, but went to a ttt law school. And they didnt choose the ttt over t14 because it was cheaper. They simply couldnt get in. The mcat, as seen by premeds, is easier than the lsat. These kids have had years of basic science, coursework that is tested on the mcat. Also, I remember a lot of science kids being baffled by logic rules. It took a while for most of them (except math kids) to see that a necessary true doesnt imply a sufficient true.

And for anyone who scored a 165 or above, I really think they can dominate subjects like orgo, and if they are not math averse, then easily breeze through the basics of science, enough to earn them a good mcat score and probably better (perentile wise) than their lsat score as the mcat is a lot more learnable than the lsat.


Are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? So you're saying that pre-law students can dominate the MCAT/science classes, but the LSAT is beyond the intellectual capacity of pre-med students?


No I'm not pulling this out of my ass. Just browse google for some MD/JDs and you will see that most of them went to ttt law schools. I know of a few MDs who wanted to get into a good law school, studied for it (and MDs are used to studying), and just didn't do well. Quite a few MDs lament on how difficult and strange the lsat is.

What I am saying is that I believe kids (not premed) with a 165+ (and definitely those with a 175+) lsat can most likely outperform premed kids who can't score above a 160. Orgo for example is pure logical thought, but most don't see it that way. Gen chem and phys would be a breeze because it's also quite logical. The only class I can see premed kids dominating is the bio class because a lot of that is just pure memorization. Seriously, these basic science courses aren't difficult and wouldn't be for the kids who got a 165+. I've also seen way to many high performing LSAT kids tackle pretty intense math quite easily even though they were math averse before, and they would just blow a lot of average premed kids who get into average medical schools out of the water.

Just so you know I was a diehard science kid, and I used to have little respect for humanities until I took some classes in their department and until I took the lsat. For those who never did science before or have some aversion to it, you underestimate yourselves--it's really not that difficult--and if you scored above a 165 on the lsat, I am quite certain you would be able to do pretty well in science courses that tap logic more than they do memory.

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Eberry
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Eberry » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:35 am

ITT: The MCAT is equivalent to fitting shapes into their corresponding holes and the LSAT is building a to scale model of Hogwarts in under an hour using only forks and paper-clips.

hopper123
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby hopper123 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:40 am

Eberry wrote:ITT: The MCAT is equivalent to fitting shapes into their corresponding holes and the LSAT is building a to scale model of Hogwarts in under an hour using only forks and paper-clips.


Yes!

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somewhatwayward
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby somewhatwayward » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:08 am

am i really the first to call flame? badminton injury?

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androstan
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby androstan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:11 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Society views the "lsat" as a misspelling of the word "last".


+1

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Psib337
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Psib337 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:22 am

I just read this entire thing (wonderful way to start the work week) and it was very entertaining. To the OP's first question my experience with the LSAT from most people have been some, "Good luck, you'll do great," from random people to my friends going, "omg you'd be such a good lawyer," to my parents/family saying, "We support you." That's about it, otherwise no one really cares and it doesn't get talked about. Even with my other friend who's taking the LSAT we talk/complain about it for 5 minutes and then talk about something else.

To everything else I could write a book but I won't...except for I will say that you should always have a Plan B whether you're studying for the LSAT or not, it's always nice to have a backup plan because no matter how "special" and "gifted" you are things can go wrong and things can change.

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Yardbird
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Yardbird » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:31 pm

ilovelawtays wrote:
shadowofjazz wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:Don't worry about any of that shit and study to make or exceed your target score. All of this extra crap you're talking about is exactly that.

Also in my opinion the MCAT is far more difficult than the LSAT, and I don't think you understand or appreciate just how difficult the MCAT is if you talk about it like that. You can consider most of the concepts of mathematics and science to be "rote memorization" but that doesn't make them easily apprehended.

Rather than brag or boast or care about what other people think about your LSAT studies, shut up and don't talk to them about it and just study for your score.


Having taken both the MCATs and the LSATs and having done well on both, the LSAT required much more preparation for me (~ a full month of study v. 2 weeks for the MCAT). The MCAT in the end boils down to formulas (easily memorized), organic chemistry reactions (easily memorized) and reading comprehension.

Regarding the OP's question, I see something completely different. When I told people I was taking the LSAT, a good majority of them responded with, "I'm pretty sure I would do well on that." o_O I believe some professors that say this, but it seems odd that in my area people think its easy to do well (170+) on the LSAT.

[Edit] I should specify - the LSAT prep was a full month of 12 hours of prep per day. The MCAT prep was about 4 hours per day for 2 weeks.
[Edit 2] I saw another post about science GPAs. For the record, my science GPA is about a 2.6-2.7. Cumulative is 3.1-3.2



2 weeks plus the year or so you spent taking bio, chem, physics, and o-chem.

I took the MCAT after my freshmen year of college. I only took Orgo in college, the rest I placed out of. I took gen chem once in high school, physics once in high school, and bio off and on since elementary school.

I took the LSAT after my 4th year in college (I'm a five year student). I took it after taking multiple upper level logic courses and 21 years of rational thinking. The LSAT tests how you think. Your whole life can arguably be construed as preparation that helps (or hurts) you on the test.

I'm not quite sure you get my argument. You DO NOT need to take science courses to do well on the MCAT. All the material is self learnable and the prep books for it hold your hand through that process. The LSAT doesnt test material, it tests how you think. Changing/focusing how you think is also learnable but takes longer than memorization of subject matter, even if it is science based.

For the record, organic chemistry was easy for me only because I thought of it as large logic puzzles like another poster said. The people who do well with orgo mechanisms aren't usually the normal premed kids (hence why orgo has such a bad name).

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JazzOne
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby JazzOne » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:02 pm

TheWeeIceMon wrote:Are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? So you're saying that pre-law students can dominate the MCAT/science classes, but the LSAT is beyond the intellectual capacity of pre-med students?

Having taught LSAT and MCAT for years, I would basically agree with that generalization. LSAT students tend to be quite analytical and capable of adapting to new topics or contexts. In contrast, when MCAT students are presented with something unfamiliar, their intelligence can fade very quickly (e.g., the verbal reasoning section just destroys some pretty knowledgeable kids). Obviously not true for everyone, but that's my observation based on 8 years of teaching test prep.

I also think the LSAT is more difficult than the MCAT. It is a tough comparison, though, considering how much background knowledge is necessary to even comprehend a science passage. It's easy to take that knowledge for granted when you've spent years acquiring it little by little.
Last edited by JazzOne on Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ilovelawtays
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby ilovelawtays » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:10 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:
ilovelawtays wrote:
shadowofjazz wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:Don't worry about any of that shit and study to make or exceed your target score. All of this extra crap you're talking about is exactly that.

Also in my opinion the MCAT is far more difficult than the LSAT, and I don't think you understand or appreciate just how difficult the MCAT is if you talk about it like that. You can consider most of the concepts of mathematics and science to be "rote memorization" but that doesn't make them easily apprehended.

Rather than brag or boast or care about what other people think about your LSAT studies, shut up and don't talk to them about it and just study for your score.


Having taken both the MCATs and the LSATs and having done well on both, the LSAT required much more preparation for me (~ a full month of study v. 2 weeks for the MCAT). The MCAT in the end boils down to formulas (easily memorized), organic chemistry reactions (easily memorized) and reading comprehension.

Regarding the OP's question, I see something completely different. When I told people I was taking the LSAT, a good majority of them responded with, "I'm pretty sure I would do well on that." o_O I believe some professors that say this, but it seems odd that in my area people think its easy to do well (170+) on the LSAT.

[Edit] I should specify - the LSAT prep was a full month of 12 hours of prep per day. The MCAT prep was about 4 hours per day for 2 weeks.
[Edit 2] I saw another post about science GPAs. For the record, my science GPA is about a 2.6-2.7. Cumulative is 3.1-3.2



2 weeks plus the year or so you spent taking bio, chem, physics, and o-chem.

I took the MCAT after my freshmen year of college. I only took Orgo in college, the rest I placed out of. I took gen chem once in high school, physics once in high school, and bio off and on since elementary school.

I took the LSAT after my 4th year in college (I'm a five year student). I took it after taking multiple upper level logic courses and 21 years of rational thinking. The LSAT tests how you think. Your whole life can arguably be construed as preparation that helps (or hurts) you on the test.

I'm not quite sure you get my argument. You DO NOT need to take science courses to do well on the MCAT. All the material is self learnable and the prep books for it hold your hand through that process. The LSAT doesnt test material, it tests how you think. Changing/focusing how you think is also learnable but takes longer than memorization of subject matter, even if it is science based.

For the record, organic chemistry was easy for me only because I thought of it as large logic puzzles like another poster said. The people who do well with orgo mechanisms aren't usually the normal premed kids (hence why orgo has such a bad name).



Oh, I "get" your argument. I just happen to disagree with you and think you're wrong.

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Yardbird
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Yardbird » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:00 pm

I never said it was an easy test. Just that individuals who score above 170+ on the LSAT can easily score 36+ on the MCAT with less effort than they used on the LSAT, especially if LG was their best section from the start. Individuals who score 36+ on the MCAT would not necessarily score easily above 170 on the LSAT.

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Nova
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Nova » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:21 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:I never said it was an easy test. Just that individuals who score above 170+ on the LSAT can easily score 36+ on the MCAT with less effort than they used on the LSAT, especially if LG was their best section from the start. Individuals who score 36+ on the MCAT would not necessarily score easily above 170 on the LSAT.


From now on, I choose to belive this. :mrgreen:

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Postby PourMeTea » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:32 pm

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espressocream
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby espressocream » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:36 pm

At least in my circle of friends it's considered a difficult test, but so is the MCAT.

I, admittedly, failed a semester of AP chem back in high school and skated by with a D in the other semester.
Having studied for our respective tests with my friend, who took the MCAT last year, the material was intimidating and there was a lot of it.
The LSAT has three focus areas, the MCAT has way more than that. You can cover the LSAT in about three months, but
the MCAT largely relies upon what you took in college with additional study time.

Also, they take it on a computer that watches them the whole time. Creepy.
Having grown up on pencil and paper standardized tests, it's a huge advantage for
LSAT takers to be comfortable with the format.
If I had to do a lg/lr section on a computer screen I'd get a 147. At best.

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kennethellenparcell
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby kennethellenparcell » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:03 pm

Haven't read this whole thread but I just wanted to say that the reaction I generally get is, "oh you took the lsat? did you pass it?"

Also, OP stop freaking out if you are. The LSAT is tough but totally conquerable. No need to psych yourself out even more by thinking about all the stuff you typed.

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Tom Joad
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:04 pm

Congrats, OP. You made xoxo.

AffordablePrep
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby AffordablePrep » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:16 pm

it depends. i was at a low point while studying for it, and around pretty lousy people. my girlfriend at the time had friends who took it drunk or stoned. when i said i was practicing in the 170s when asked, i was told im a liar by one of her guy friends. he insisted on having me do logic games in front of him..... betting me cash that i couldnt solve some random ones he had from his old prep book in under 5 minutes per. i won the bet. he then bet me he could win a fist fight. i could decline.

as i've become less of a bum, my score has become less weird or unbelievable to my social network. it's all relative.

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romothesavior
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:20 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:I never said it was an easy test. Just that individuals who score above 170+ on the LSAT can easily score 36+ on the MCAT with less effort than they used on the LSAT, especially if LG was their best section from the start. Individuals who score 36+ on the MCAT would not necessarily score easily above 170 on the LSAT.

No

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romothesavior
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:21 pm

Seriously no. That is asinine asshattery.

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Tom Joad
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:22 pm

lol double post romowned.

TERS
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby TERS » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:28 pm

Come on! Difficulty-wise, you can't compare the LSAT and MCAT.

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Br3v
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby Br3v » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:17 pm

Basically I saw your interaction as this:
Everyone in college says they are going to law school. We know not all of them do. The Dr. Probably just put you in the vast majority that don't category at first.

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sundance95
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby sundance95 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:19 pm

TERS wrote:Come on! Difficulty-wise, you can't compare the LSAT and MCAT.

Image

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ilovelawtays
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby ilovelawtays » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:22 pm

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

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TheWeeIceMon
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby TheWeeIceMon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 pm

JazzOne wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:Are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? So you're saying that pre-law students can dominate the MCAT/science classes, but the LSAT is beyond the intellectual capacity of pre-med students?

Having taught LSAT and MCAT for years, I would basically agree with that generalization. LSAT students tend to be quite analytical and capable of adapting to new topics or contexts. In contrast, when MCAT students are presented with something unfamiliar, their intelligence can fade very quickly (e.g., the verbal reasoning section just destroys some pretty knowledgeable kids). Obviously not true for everyone, but that's my observation based on 8 years of teaching test prep.

I also think the LSAT is more difficult than the MCAT. It is a tough comparison, though, considering how much background knowledge is necessary to even comprehend a science passage. It's easy to take that knowledge for granted when you've spent years acquiring it little by little.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I am underestimating the massive intellectual capability of pre-law students.

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ilovelawtays
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Re: how does society view the lsat?

Postby ilovelawtays » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:32 pm

TheWeeIceMon wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:Are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? So you're saying that pre-law students can dominate the MCAT/science classes, but the LSAT is beyond the intellectual capacity of pre-med students?

Having taught LSAT and MCAT for years, I would basically agree with that generalization. LSAT students tend to be quite analytical and capable of adapting to new topics or contexts. In contrast, when MCAT students are presented with something unfamiliar, their intelligence can fade very quickly (e.g., the verbal reasoning section just destroys some pretty knowledgeable kids). Obviously not true for everyone, but that's my observation based on 8 years of teaching test prep.

I also think the LSAT is more difficult than the MCAT. It is a tough comparison, though, considering how much background knowledge is necessary to even comprehend a science passage. It's easy to take that knowledge for granted when you've spent years acquiring it little by little.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I am underestimating the massive intellectual capability of pre-law students.


You aren't.


No offense, guys.




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