Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:03 am

woolfiot wrote:I think certain people are just trying to say don't get your hopes up. Very few would be secure enough in their performance on the test to not give a shit about the curve.


I understand. I'm just entertaining an idea. It's either this or post pictures of otters in the June waiting thread. This sounds more interesting.

TERS
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby TERS » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:05 am

As the meerkat alludes to, the effects of the change will not only be negative. Arguably, the majority of test takers were aided, not hindered, by the change. The additional space could be used for hypotheticals and a larger initial setup and this could offset the unfamiliarity negative.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:05 am

I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby TERS » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:08 am

acrossthelake wrote:I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger."


I have a royalty rate. You can send the money to TERS in Canada.

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:08 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
TERS wrote:The additional space, while unexpected, was helpful. The adjustment should've been instantaneous: "Oh, they've given me extra space. Cool. I'll proceed as usual." For me, it was instantaneous, and I had done a lot of practice LG sections beforehand (the former layout was sufficiently ingrained, in other words).

What is strange to me is that the experimental LGs have, to my knowledge, been limited to one page each, and you'd think that LSAC would ensure those questions/sections used to create the curve would be identical both in content and layout...

At any rate, the idea that LSAC would come up with a more lenient curve because of a slightly different and arguably more conducive layout? Delusional.


Why is it delusional? It had negative affects. It affected the experiment. Thus, if they are going to be fair, they MUST compensate for the change.

Because maybe, JUST MAYBE, it also had positive effects that you're conveniently ignoring. :lol:


What could you have done with more space that you couldn't have done with the previously alotted space? Use it for more hypotheticals and waste time? Isn't that another negative effect? No one needed that much space. It's like being given a 5 by 5 foot table to do the LSAT and then being unexpectedly moved to a different room and given a 10 by 10 foot table. Wow. We got extra room to do the LSAT guys. Does that make the LSAT you're taking any easier? No.

As someone who's tutored the test, yeah, the space constraint makes a pretty big difference for tons of people. I've seen students' ability to finish and to score to their potential seriously effected by the space limitation. They'd do the the section with a notebook on the side for scratch paper and get one score consistently, and when I realized that and told them they need to practice without it, their score would dip because it's just another factor to juggle. Seems safe to say there are people who practice with scratch paper but who also don't have a tutor around to tell them not to.

Also, you should consider not using "It's like...." to start your sentences anymore. Every one of those sentences have made me facepalm.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:08 am

acrossthelake wrote:I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."


Yes, but you knew beforehand that the tables were bigger. This was during the exam. But, I understand what you are saying. It just doesn't seem right from a scientific and academic point of view to use the curve derived from the performances of students' who took those sections previously as experimentals when there was such a game-changing (no pun intended) aspect of the test that wasn't there when said students took it.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:10 am


Why is it delusional? It had negative affects. It affected the experiment. Thus, if they are going to be fair, they MUST compensate for the change.

Because maybe, JUST MAYBE, it also had positive effects that you're conveniently ignoring. :lol:[/quote]

What could you have done with more space that you couldn't have done with the previously alotted space? Use it for more hypotheticals and waste time? Isn't that another negative effect? No one needed that much space. It's like being given a 5 by 5 foot table to do the LSAT and then being unexpectedly moved to a different room and given a 10 by 10 foot table. Wow. We got extra room to do the LSAT guys. Does that make the LSAT you're taking any easier? No.[/quote]
As someone who's tutored the test, yeah, the space constraint makes a pretty big difference for tons of people. I've seen students' ability to finish and to score to their potential seriously effected by the space limitation. They'd do the the section with a notebook on the side for scratch paper and get one score consistently, and when I realized that and told them they need to practice without it, their score would dip because it's just another factor to juggle. Seems safe to say there are people who practice with scratch paper but who also don't have a tutor around to tell them not to.

Also, you should consider not using "It's like...." to start your sentences anymore. Every one of those sentences have made me facepalm.[/quote]

Facepalm for analogies?

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:13 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Facepalm for analogies?

Nah, just ones that are poorly constructed and don't actually apply.

woolfiot
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby woolfiot » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:16 am

Maybe the February test takers had an experimental section with extra space for their logic games?

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:17 am

tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Facepalm for analogies?

Nah, just ones that are poorly constructed and don't actually apply.


Provide an example of their disanalogous-ness.

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Icculus
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby Icculus » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:18 am

acrossthelake wrote:I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."


This. Also, I don't understand how this would possibly cause a large difference in how people did vs. when the section was experimental. Not to mention there may be testers who did better on LG than they would have if there was less space and thus the curve would still stand. I also don't see how more space changes any strategy for taking the LG section. You still must diagram your rules, make your deductions, apply deductions and hypotheticals to the question. I don't think more space would impact your ability to deduce, and if it flustered you THAT much you're going to have a helluva time in law school, especially since I think professor's can throw far more curveballs at you than this. Relax and take responsibility for your own performance.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:18 am

woolfiot wrote:Maybe the February test takers had an experimental section with extra space for their logic games?


It would've been talked about already had that happened.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:19 am

Icculus wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."


This. Also, I don't understand how this would possibly cause a large difference in how people did vs. when the section was experimental. Not to mention there may be testers who did better on LG than they would have if there was less space and thus the curve would still stand. I also don't see how more space changes any strategy for taking the LG section. You still must diagram your rules, make your deductions, apply deductions and hypotheticals to the question. I don't think more space would impact your ability to deduce, and if it flustered you THAT much you're going to have a helluva time in law school, especially since I think professor's can throw far more curveballs at you than this. Relax and take responsibility for your own performance.


That is somewhat relevant. What do you say about the scientific side of it?

maxmartin
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby maxmartin » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:21 am

no, it did not happen in Feb
woolfiot wrote:Maybe the February test takers had an experimental section with extra space for their logic games?

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:23 am

maxmartin wrote:no, it did not happen in Feb
woolfiot wrote:Maybe the February test takers had an experimental section with extra space for their logic games?


And doesn't this change warrant a change in the curve for compensation, regardless if it's favorable or unfavorable? That's what I'm going for here. Hence, the title of this thread.

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:24 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Facepalm for analogies?

Nah, just ones that are poorly constructed and don't actually apply.


Provide an example of their disanalogous-ness.

:roll:
Inserting ice into the middle of a fucking running track would be absolutely retarded and would not cause anyone to exclaim "oh, yeah, that was a nice addition to the race, it really helped me out!" Whereas there are already people ITT saying that about the added space.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:26 am

tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Facepalm for analogies?

Nah, just ones that are poorly constructed and don't actually apply.


Provide an example of their disanalogous-ness.

:roll:
Inserting ice into the middle of a fucking running track would be absolutely retarded and would not cause anyone to exclaim "oh, yeah, that was a nice addition to the race, it really helped me out!" Whereas there are already people ITT saying that about the added space.


I meant a bit of ice, not cover the entire thing with ice, leading to some people running past it without much difficulty or even noticing it while others stop, try to go around, and slip and fall.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby Icculus » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:27 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Icculus wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."


This. Also, I don't understand how this would possibly cause a large difference in how people did vs. when the section was experimental. Not to mention there may be testers who did better on LG than they would have if there was less space and thus the curve would still stand. I also don't see how more space changes any strategy for taking the LG section. You still must diagram your rules, make your deductions, apply deductions and hypotheticals to the question. I don't think more space would impact your ability to deduce, and if it flustered you THAT much you're going to have a helluva time in law school, especially since I think professor's can throw far more curveballs at you than this. Relax and take responsibility for your own performance.


That is somewhat relevant. What do you say about the scientific side of it?


I would argue that the experimental sections test the ability to process the information given, that ability is not based on space allotted, but rather the ability to synthesize the information given into accurate answers. I have a hard time believing that the space given to test takers is such a significant variable as to cause drastic change in the curve. If the issue was that games were spread out so far that testers had to flip back several pages to review rules, etc. I think I would agree with you, but if it's that one game was on two pages rather than one then the it seems that overall it would be a benefit rather than a negative for testers.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby Ded Precedent » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:27 am

The extra space on games will have no impact whatsoever on the curve. I can't even believe this is up for discussion.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:31 am

Icculus wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Icculus wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I don't think they're going to calibrate the curve to take into account extreme test anxiety. I think they expect that your reaction would've been: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can make my diagrams larger." My testing center actually gave better tables my year than normal--my response: "Oh, cool, more space, now I can spread my pencils out."


This. Also, I don't understand how this would possibly cause a large difference in how people did vs. when the section was experimental. Not to mention there may be testers who did better on LG than they would have if there was less space and thus the curve would still stand. I also don't see how more space changes any strategy for taking the LG section. You still must diagram your rules, make your deductions, apply deductions and hypotheticals to the question. I don't think more space would impact your ability to deduce, and if it flustered you THAT much you're going to have a helluva time in law school, especially since I think professor's can throw far more curveballs at you than this. Relax and take responsibility for your own performance.


That is somewhat relevant. What do you say about the scientific side of it?


I would argue that the experimental sections test the ability to process the information given, that ability is not based on space allotted, but rather the ability to synthesize the information given into accurate answers. I have a hard time believing that the space given to test takers is such a significant variable as to cause drastic change in the curve. If the issue was that games were spread out so far that testers had to flip back several pages to review rules, etc. I think I would agree with you, but if it's that one game was on two pages rather than one then the it seems that overall it would be a benefit rather than a negative for testers.


So whereas on the original layout one could simply make the diagram on the bottom and look down to reference to it, one on the new layout had to turn one's head, raise one's left arm, and then reference to the diagram before moving their head to the right to see, and then back and forth. This awkward change does not matter enough to even move the curve by one mere question?

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:35 am

Okay. I'm calling flame.

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bdeebs
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby bdeebs » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:36 am

Testmakers should come on these forums for new content. The underlying structure of the ice analogy seems eerily familiar.

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:37 am

tmon wrote:Okay. I'm calling flame.


Why do people do that? They automatically stop thinking whenever it gets a bit tougher. Then they say someone is trolling. Just because it's difficult for you to understand, it doesn't mean it's a joke. It just means you don't understand it fully.
Last edited by RodionRaskolnikov on Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:38 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

maxmartin
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby maxmartin » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:40 am

my sense tell me nothing what so ever would happen to curve
but secretly wish for extra favor :mrgreen:




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