Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

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RodionRaskolnikov
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Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:34 am

I was told, or I read, that LSAC uses the experimental sections to see how well people do on the questions they created and based on how they do on those questions, they can create a curve when they use those exp. sections as real sections on the LSAT. It's like a scientific experiment. The LSAT takers each test are fairly representative of each other and thus the way one group of takers deal with a section will be similar to the way future group of takers will do when the sections are real.

But, since each LG on the LG section on this June test were on 2 pages rather than 1, and since they were given as experimental on previous tests on 1 page, this means that the previous and current taking of said section are significantly different to warrant the curve set by them inappropriate for current test takers.

Or am I way off?

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ned
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby ned » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:45 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:I was told, or I read, that LSAC uses the experimental sections to see how well people do on the questions they created and based on how they do on those questions, they can create a curve when they use those exp. sections as real sections on the LSAT. It's like a scientific experiment. The LSAT takers each test are fairly representative of each other and thus the way one group of takers deal with a section will be similar to the way future group of takers will do when the sections are real.

But, since each LG on the LG section on this June test were on 2 pages rather than 1, and since they were given as experimental on previous tests on 1 page, this means that the previous and current taking of said section are significantly different to warrant the curve set by them inappropriate for current test takers.

Or am I way off?


Yeah I thought about this too. Had I received 2 lg sections, the second section would have gone much better, once I'd acclimated to the new layout.

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tmon
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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:51 am

As I understand it, they're pretty good at equating tests, and the scale developed by previous experimental testings is flexible. They can adjust the scale once all the June tests are scored.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby woolfiot » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:56 am

Then again, if it's the same material it shouldn't really matter that it was spread out a bit. I hate to say it, but the extra room was more of a privilege than anything. It provided ample space to produce hypotheticals, which was helpful due to the fact that there weren't a whole lot of deductions that could be made based on the given conditions. That being said, believe me... I hope more than anything that a generous curve is given.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:01 am

woolfiot wrote:Then again, if it's the same material it shouldn't really matter that it was spread out a bit. I hate to say it, but the extra room was more of a privilege than anything. It provided ample space to produce hypotheticals, which was helpful due to the fact that there weren't a whole lot of deductions that could be made based on the given conditions. That being said, believe me... I hope more than anything that a generous curve is given.


I hope so too. With the poster above you, I think they MAY (very little possibility but may nonetheless) redo the curve. You think that it was a privilege. But, I heard 3 out of 4 of the games had limited possibilities, which is the biggest deduction that you can ever make on a LG. So there were big deductions, but a lot of people missed that because of the added space, which made people go into creating hypotheticals. So if they readjust the curve, let's hope they make it bigger than normal instead of lower with the justification being that they gave us more space and more space is somehow better than less space.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:06 am

tmon wrote:As I understand it, they're pretty good at equating tests, and the scale developed by previous experimental testings is flexible. They can adjust the scale once all the June tests are scored.


Let's hope that happens. I think it will happen. After all, making such a drastic change between experimental and real administration of sections warrants a readjustment of the curve. If they don't readjust, then the whole "experiment" would be so flawed that I'd give it an F- if it was given to me in an intro to science 1st grade class.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby Bildungsroman » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:10 am

Lol people still seem mad that LSAC actually gave more room for logic games. Lol just lol at thinking this somehow means you deserve a more lenient curve. Wishful thinking.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:12 am

Bildungsroman wrote:Lol people still seem mad that LSAC actually gave more room for logic games. Lol just lol at thinking this somehow means you deserve a more lenient curve. Wishful thinking.


Why would it be wishful thinking? I don't see the necessary relationship between more space and easier LG section.

Edit: UNEXPECTED more space

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby Bildungsroman » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:15 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Lol people still seem mad that LSAC actually gave more room for logic games. Lol just lol at thinking this somehow means you deserve a more lenient curve. Wishful thinking.


Why would it be wishful thinking? I don't see the necessary relationship between more space and easier LG section.

It's wishful thinking to tell yourself LSAC will somehow compensate you for its own favor in removing a functional impediment. Are you going to ask for more points if they switch to a thicker paper that erases better and allow for highlighting?

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby humbugger » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:23 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:So there were big deductions, but a lot of people missed that because of the added space, which made people go into creating hypotheticals.

Heh. I missed the "big deductions" all on my own, thanks. Maybe you should just accept that you did as well...

RodionRaskolnikov wrote: So if they readjust the curve, let's hope they make it bigger than normal instead of lower with the justification being that they gave us more space and more space is somehow better than less space.

As much as this appeals to me, I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:25 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Lol people still seem mad that LSAC actually gave more room for logic games. Lol just lol at thinking this somehow means you deserve a more lenient curve. Wishful thinking.


Why would it be wishful thinking? I don't see the necessary relationship between more space and easier LG section.

It's wishful thinking to tell yourself LSAC will somehow compensate you for its own favor in removing a functional impediment. Are you going to ask for more points if they switch to a thicker paper that erases better and allow for highlighting?


I think you missed the point. The point isn't simply that they gave us more room. It's that they unexpectedly gave us more room. With each previous tests, except for the one where they introduced the comparative reading passage, test takers had to deal with the same amount of rigor on the test. Sure, there were surprises. Perhaps they may get a linear game, perhaps they may get a grouped or even hybrid. Perhaps they may have a passage about british law, or maybe about tax law internationally. Who knows? But, every test provided those twists, meaning that those surprises were carried over with every new test. However, this June test added a big surprise with the added space in LG section. It's not the added space itself that we're looking at. It's what it did. The added surprise and fluster it gave makes it more challenging in that respect than the previous test.

Now, if you just look at it from an added-space point of view. The added space does not make the games any easier. After all, the previously alotted space was sufficient enough to answer the questions in under 8 minutes per game (for those who knew how to deal with them). So giving more space to do what one can do in the originally alotted space made no difference. It's like if you were given a 10 by 10 foot table at which you were to do the test, which is sufficient amount of room, but then were given a 20X20 table. This 20X20 table would not make the LSAT you're taking any easier. But the sudden change of testing rooms in order for you to change the table would provide an unexpected fluster and surprise that would negatively affect your test taking when compared to you being left alone at that same room and at that same table.
Last edited by RodionRaskolnikov on Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby dkb17xzx » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:28 am

woolfiot wrote:Then again, if it's the same material it shouldn't really matter that it was spread out a bit. I hate to say it, but the extra room was more of a privilege than anything. It provided ample space to produce hypotheticals, which was helpful due to the fact that there weren't a whole lot of deductions that could be made based on the given conditions. That being said, believe me... I hope more than anything that a generous curve is given.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:34 am

Yeah, they wont be doing you any favors with the curve after giving you more space. :lol:

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:37 am

tmon wrote:Yeah, they wont be doing you any favors with the curve after giving you more space. :lol:


Of course they won't be doing any favors after giving more space. Doing a favor implies doing something undeserved. But adding more space unexpectedly, which can be reasonably seen as negatively affecting test taking, can warrant the favorable readjustment of the curve. So, it would not be a favor. It would be justice. lol

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:42 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:But adding more space unexpectedly, which can be reasonably seen as negatively affecting test taking, can warrant the favorable readjustment of the curve.

If you did anything other than think "more space, fuck yeah!" after noticing the change you failed hard, man. Seriously, you think suddenly having more room is going to change the curve in your favor? That's so ridiculously laughable.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby dkb17xzx » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:44 am

I don't think that the extra space will factor in for a generous curve. However I will say this - that shit threw me off.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby woolfiot » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:46 am

It's wishful thinking to tell yourself LSAC will somehow compensate you for its own favor in removing a functional impediment. Are you going to ask for more points if they switch to a thicker paper that erases better and allow for highlighting?


That made me lol hardcore. Even if the extra space in the games section isn't taken into account, I still think the curve will be semi-generous. There were quite a few aspects of this particular test that made it different enough from past PTs to warrant something more than a -10. But I'm expecting that the most we could hope for is a -11.
Last edited by woolfiot on Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:49 am

dkb17xzx wrote:I don't think that the extra space will factor in for a generous curve. However I will say this - that shit threw me off.


And that's what I hear happened to many test takers who are great at LG. It seems like those who weren't good at LG didn't mind it but those who do well on them were thrown off. But, even with the amount of people being thrown off, it is undeniable that it caused a difference between us taking the test and the previous students who took it as experimental sections, which, if we are going to be fair and academic, must be taken into account when the curve is made. Otherwise, it is unfair to give a curve based only on previous students' performances. It's like saying the average lap time will be 2 minutes for a group of people racing and expecting it to be the same or nearly the same later when there are high winds and hail.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby woolfiot » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:51 am

I'm inclined to agree, and I sincerely hope LSAC is too. If they were to throw a -9 curve at us I would probably jump off of something very high.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby TERS » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:54 am

The additional space, while unexpected, was helpful. The adjustment should've been instantaneous: "Oh, they've given me extra space. Cool. I'll proceed as usual." For me, it was instantaneous, and I had done a lot of practice LG sections beforehand (the former layout was sufficiently ingrained, in other words).

What is strange to me is that the experimental LGs have, to my knowledge, been limited to one page each, and you'd think that LSAC would ensure those questions/sections used to create the curve would be identical both in content and layout...

At any rate, the idea that LSAC would come up with a more lenient curve because of a slightly different and arguably more conducive layout? Delusional.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:55 am

woolfiot wrote:I'm inclined to agree, and I sincerely hope LSAC is too. If they were to throw a -9 curve at us I would probably jump off of something very high.


I wasn't really fired up about this until I really thought about it right now. It's like letting someone race around the track and recording their time. Then putting ice in the middle of the track, not telling them, and then having them race again. To say that those lap times should be the same..... *mind blows*

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:56 am

TERS wrote:The additional space, while unexpected, was helpful. The adjustment should've been instantaneous: "Oh, they've given me extra space. Cool. I'll proceed as usual." For me, it was instantaneous, and I had done a lot of practice LG sections beforehand (the former layout was sufficiently ingrained, in other words).

What is strange to me is that the experimental LGs have, to my knowledge, been limited to one page each, and you'd think that LSAC would ensure those questions/sections used to create the curve would be identical both in content and layout...

At any rate, the idea that LSAC would come up with a more lenient curve because of a slightly different and arguably more conducive layout? Delusional.


Why is it delusional? It had negative affects. It affected the experiment. Thus, if they are going to be fair, they MUST compensate for the change.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby tmon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:57 am

RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
TERS wrote:The additional space, while unexpected, was helpful. The adjustment should've been instantaneous: "Oh, they've given me extra space. Cool. I'll proceed as usual." For me, it was instantaneous, and I had done a lot of practice LG sections beforehand (the former layout was sufficiently ingrained, in other words).

What is strange to me is that the experimental LGs have, to my knowledge, been limited to one page each, and you'd think that LSAC would ensure those questions/sections used to create the curve would be identical both in content and layout...

At any rate, the idea that LSAC would come up with a more lenient curve because of a slightly different and arguably more conducive layout? Delusional.


Why is it delusional? It had negative affects. It affected the experiment. Thus, if they are going to be fair, they MUST compensate for the change.

Because maybe, JUST MAYBE, it also had positive effects that you're conveniently ignoring. :lol:

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby woolfiot » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:59 am

I think certain people are just trying to say don't get your hopes up. Very few would be secure enough in their performance on the test to not give a shit about the curve.

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Re: Inappropriate June 2012 Curve

Postby RodionRaskolnikov » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:02 am

tmon wrote:
RodionRaskolnikov wrote:
TERS wrote:The additional space, while unexpected, was helpful. The adjustment should've been instantaneous: "Oh, they've given me extra space. Cool. I'll proceed as usual." For me, it was instantaneous, and I had done a lot of practice LG sections beforehand (the former layout was sufficiently ingrained, in other words).

What is strange to me is that the experimental LGs have, to my knowledge, been limited to one page each, and you'd think that LSAC would ensure those questions/sections used to create the curve would be identical both in content and layout...

At any rate, the idea that LSAC would come up with a more lenient curve because of a slightly different and arguably more conducive layout? Delusional.


Why is it delusional? It had negative affects. It affected the experiment. Thus, if they are going to be fair, they MUST compensate for the change.

Because maybe, JUST MAYBE, it also had positive effects that you're conveniently ignoring. :lol:


What could you have done with more space that you couldn't have done with the previously alotted space? Use it for more hypotheticals and waste time? Isn't that another negative effect? No one needed that much space. It's like being given a 5 by 5 foot table to do the LSAT and then being unexpectedly moved to a different room and given a 10 by 10 foot table. Wow. We got extra room to do the LSAT guys. Does that make the LSAT you're taking any easier? No.




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