Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

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DaRascal
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Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby DaRascal » Thu May 31, 2012 7:30 pm

I think the subject title's pretty self-explanatory. And I mean to imply that some people have ceilings that aren't 170+.
What I mean to say is... Do you think there are some people who can never really achieve a certain score even with an unlimited amount of study time because of factors such as lapses in focus, inability to process/handle multiple pieces of information at one time, inability to make correct inferences, etc etc etc.

I've read for the longest time on here that the LSAT is an exam that can be learned, but I just don't buy it. This is exam is pretty difficult. There's no way that virutally everyone is capable of getting a 170+ on this.

What do you think?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu May 31, 2012 7:41 pm

DaRascal wrote:I've read for the longest time on here that the LSAT is an exam that can be learned, but I just don't buy it. This is exam is pretty difficult. There's no way that virutally everyone is capable of getting a 170+ on this.


These things are not mutually exclusive.

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Nova
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Nova » Thu May 31, 2012 7:48 pm

Some people dont have ceilings. Some people do have ceilings. I would guess most people dont reach their ceiling.

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smaug_
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby smaug_ » Thu May 31, 2012 7:51 pm

Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.

VasaVasori
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Postby VasaVasori » Thu May 31, 2012 7:54 pm

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Tom Joad
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Tom Joad » Thu May 31, 2012 8:05 pm

The correct answer: I don't know.

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dresden doll
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby dresden doll » Thu May 31, 2012 8:06 pm

hibiki wrote:Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.

That seems like an unrealistic hope.

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smaug_
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby smaug_ » Thu May 31, 2012 9:06 pm

dresden doll wrote:That seems like an unrealistic hope.


Maybe. I don't think the LSAT is really that hard. If you can read quickly enough and learn the games section you should be able to score 170+. I'd be further willing to qualify it to "all native speakers of English who don't suffer from attention or reading disorders."

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Kikero
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Kikero » Thu May 31, 2012 9:14 pm

Considering that the LSAT is based on percentages, wouldn't it be impossible for everybody or even a large number of people to score over 170?

Does an individual person have a ceiling on the LSAT? Probably some do, some don't, and the majority have a "practical" ceiling, which theoretically they could pass, but it would take far too much time or effort for it to actually happen.

portaprokoss
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby portaprokoss » Thu May 31, 2012 9:36 pm

Yes, 180.

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DaRascal
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby DaRascal » Thu May 31, 2012 9:41 pm

portaprokoss wrote:Yes, 180.


I specifically added the "Some people have ceilings that aren't 170+" in my first post because it wouldn't fit in the thread title.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Thu May 31, 2012 9:43 pm

DaRascal wrote:I think the subject title's pretty self-explanatory. And I mean to imply that some people have ceilings that aren't 170+.
What I mean to say is... Do you think there are some people who can never really achieve a certain score even with an unlimited amount of study time because of factors such as lapses in focus, inability to process/handle multiple pieces of information at one time, inability to make correct inferences, etc etc etc.

I've read for the longest time on here that the LSAT is an exam that can be learned, but I just don't buy it. This is exam is pretty difficult. There's no way that virutally everyone is capable of getting a 170+ on this.

What do you think?

DaRascal, you are at your ceiling. Go to cosmetology school. You'll never make it.

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Nova
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Nova » Thu May 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Kikero wrote:Considering that the LSAT is based on percentages, wouldn't it be impossible for everybody or even a large number of people to score over 170?

Does an individual person have a ceiling on the LSAT? Probably some do, some don't, and the majority have a "practical" ceiling, which theoretically they could pass, but it would take far too much time or effort for it to actually happen.


Actually no. The test is equated so that a certain score indicates a certain level of ability. The percentage of test takers who score a certain score changes every test.

hibiki wrote: Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


Not even close.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu May 31, 2012 10:07 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:
DaRascal wrote:I think the subject title's pretty self-explanatory. And I mean to imply that some people have ceilings that aren't 170+.
What I mean to say is... Do you think there are some people who can never really achieve a certain score even with an unlimited amount of study time because of factors such as lapses in focus, inability to process/handle multiple pieces of information at one time, inability to make correct inferences, etc etc etc.

I've read for the longest time on here that the LSAT is an exam that can be learned, but I just don't buy it. This is exam is pretty difficult. There's no way that virutally everyone is capable of getting a 170+ on this.

What do you think?

DaRascal, you are at your ceiling. Go to cosmetology school. You'll never make it.


ITT Tech is TCR.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby shifty_eyed » Thu May 31, 2012 10:29 pm

I don't know, but I'm beginning to think that it's crazy that you can get into law school with under a 160. For comparison, the average mcat score is around a 24, but the average accepted applicant has a 29-30 (75th percentile). It is incredibly unlikely to get into an MD school with a 24 mcat. But any person with a college degree who takes the LSAT has a plethora of TTTTs that will accept them with an average to slightly below average LSAT score.

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suspicious android
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby suspicious android » Thu May 31, 2012 10:52 pm

hibiki wrote:Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


I like your optimism, but keep in mind about half of Harvard students who take the lsat don't break 166.

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Nova
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Nova » Thu May 31, 2012 11:12 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:I don't know, but I'm beginning to think that it's crazy that you can get into law school with under a 160. For comparison, the average mcat score is around a 24, but the average accepted applicant has a 29-30 (75th percentile). It is incredibly unlikely to get into an MD school with a 24 mcat. But any person with a college degree who takes the LSAT has a plethora of TTTTs that will accept them with an average to slightly below average LSAT score.


When I took the LSAT last December, 160 = 73 correct answers and was the 80th percentile. 4/5 test takers did not average -7 or less per section. :|

The more I think about it, everyone does have a ceiling because no one gets every question right every time. Even the best miss questions.

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LionelHutzJD
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby LionelHutzJD » Thu May 31, 2012 11:12 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:I don't know, but I'm beginning to think that it's crazy that you can get into law school with under a 160. For comparison, the average mcat score is around a 24, but the average accepted applicant has a 29-30 (75th percentile). It is incredibly unlikely to get into an MD school with a 24 mcat. But any person with a college degree who takes the LSAT has a plethora of TTTTs that will accept them with an average to slightly below average LSAT score.




Their are plenty of T100 schools that take scores under 160.

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marlo45
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby marlo45 » Thu May 31, 2012 11:27 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:
DaRascal wrote:I think the subject title's pretty self-explanatory. And I mean to imply that some people have ceilings that aren't 170+.
What I mean to say is... Do you think there are some people who can never really achieve a certain score even with an unlimited amount of study time because of factors such as lapses in focus, inability to process/handle multiple pieces of information at one time, inability to make correct inferences, etc etc etc.

I've read for the longest time on here that the LSAT is an exam that can be learned, but I just don't buy it. This is exam is pretty difficult. There's no way that virutally everyone is capable of getting a 170+ on this.

What do you think?

DaRascal, you are at your ceiling. Go to cosmetology school. You'll never make it.

Dude, that was concurrently funny and f'ed up :mrgreen:.

OP, i tend to think anyone 'could' crack 170, but the effort it would take for most people would be beyond the point of being worth it. That is, i think some people would need years of hardcore practice and would have to sit the test many times, and the benefits of a 170 would have already been lost. There's obviously no proof to my assumption; i guess i just give people the benefit of the doubt.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Micdiddy » Thu May 31, 2012 11:31 pm

suspicious android wrote:
hibiki wrote:Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


I like your optimism, but keep in mind about half of Harvard students who take the lsat don't break 166.


Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

I think lots of the low scores are due to people not properly preparing.

dooood
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby dooood » Thu May 31, 2012 11:39 pm

Nova wrote:
Kikero wrote:Considering that the LSAT is based on percentages, wouldn't it be impossible for everybody or even a large number of people to score over 170?

Does an individual person have a ceiling on the LSAT? Probably some do, some don't, and the majority have a "practical" ceiling, which theoretically they could pass, but it would take far too much time or effort for it to actually happen.


Actually no. The test is equated so that a certain score indicates a certain level of ability. The percentage of test takers who score a certain score changes every test.

hibiki wrote: Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


Not even close.

Both of these. Every person absolutely has a personal ceiling on the LSAT. People are born with different intelligence levels; much of the test is learnable, but beyond a certain point a testaker will cap out. This used to be generally accepted knowledge, but in our age of gold stars and medals for last place, somehow people have come to believe that everyone is a winner and anyone can do anything.

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smaug_
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby smaug_ » Thu May 31, 2012 11:40 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
suspicious android wrote:
hibiki wrote:Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


I like your optimism, but keep in mind about half of Harvard students who take the lsat don't break 166.


Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

I think lots of the low scores are due to people not properly preparing.


Exactly this. I don't consider myself a particularly bright person; I received decidedly average grades in undergrad, and yet getting up above 170 was still fairly easy. I think that what holds most people back is that they simply don't read quickly enough. When I read the LSAT study forums people seem to have timing issues. I think changing how quickly you read takes more time than most test prep, but it would allow most everyone to test in the 170 range. Maybe my confidence in others is misplaced, but I really think that if people needed to score above 170 they could.
Last edited by smaug_ on Thu May 31, 2012 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DaRascal
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby DaRascal » Thu May 31, 2012 11:42 pm

dooood wrote:
Nova wrote:
Kikero wrote:Considering that the LSAT is based on percentages, wouldn't it be impossible for everybody or even a large number of people to score over 170?

Does an individual person have a ceiling on the LSAT? Probably some do, some don't, and the majority have a "practical" ceiling, which theoretically they could pass, but it would take far too much time or effort for it to actually happen.


Actually no. The test is equated so that a certain score indicates a certain level of ability. The percentage of test takers who score a certain score changes every test.

hibiki wrote: Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


Not even close.

Both of these. Every person absolutely has a personal ceiling on the LSAT. People are born with different intelligence levels; much of the test is learnable, but beyond a certain point a testaker will cap out. This used to be generally accepted knowledge, but in our age of gold stars and medals for last place, somehow people have come to believe that everyone is a winner and anyone can do anything.


Come on now. Don't be a buzz kill. We're all winners and we CAN do anything. I know it. :P

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Nova
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:10 am

hibiki wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
suspicious android wrote:
hibiki wrote:Can everyone score higher than 170? Probably not. Can all native speakers of English with college degrees? I hope so.


I like your optimism, but keep in mind about half of Harvard students who take the lsat don't break 166.


Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

I think lots of the low scores are due to people not properly preparing.


Exactly this. I don't consider myself a particularly bright person; I received decidedly average grades in undergrad, and yet getting up above 170 was still fairly easy. I think that what holds most people back is that they simply don't read quickly enough. When I read the LSAT study forums people seem to have timing issues. I think changing how quickly you read takes more time than most test prep, but it would allow most everyone to test in the 170 range. Maybe my confidence in others is misplaced, but I really think that if people needed to score above 170 they could.


Lets be realistic. 3% of test takers score 170 per administration. Only 5% of test takers score 167. The bolded will never happen. Speculatively, 10-15% may be capable of scoring 170.

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dresden doll
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Re: Are you a believer that everyone has a ceiling on the LSAT?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:50 am

I'd like to know how anyone imagines that it's possible for everyone to score 170+ on a test that's specifically designed so that only 2 percent score 170+. Even if everyone performed as well as people ITT imagine it's possible with the right prep, the test makers would simply impose a super tight curve, and only 2 percent of test takers would again wind up with the 170+. The curve doesn't and wouldn't work any other way.
Last edited by dresden doll on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.




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