High variance in LG Scores

NPVLaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:12 pm

High variance in LG Scores

Postby NPVLaw » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Hello all,

I am an active duty military soldier with two tours, now looking for a career change. I have been planning to go to law school for awhile now, and began LSAT prep in the beginning of April 12 (this month).

For the most part, my scores among the sections have been consistent. The exception for me is the logic games section. I am experiencing really high variance in my LG scores (+/-8). Is this consistent with others experiences? Some problems I crush out of the park. Others eat my lunch, smack me over the head with a bat, and take my wallet.

Thanks, looking forward to becoming part of this community. I am simultaneously posting an NPV law question in a different topic area.

Thanks!

-Matthew

ahnhub
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby ahnhub » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Do you notice that you tend to struggle on the same kind of game (ordering or grouping), and dominate another kind?

User avatar
sinisterkid
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:09 am

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby sinisterkid » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:25 pm

NPVLaw wrote:Hello all,

I am an active duty military soldier with two tours, now looking for a career change. I have been planning to go to law school for awhile now, and began LSAT prep in the beginning of April 12 (this month).

For the most part, my scores among the sections have been consistent. The exception for me is the logic games section. I am experiencing really high variance in my LG scores (+/-8). Is this consistent with others experiences? Some problems I crush out of the park. Others eat my lunch, smack me over the head with a bat, and take my wallet.

Thanks, looking forward to becoming part of this community. I am simultaneously posting an NPV law question in a different topic area.

Thanks!

-Matthew


What are you using for study aids? Powerscore Logic Games Bible has significantly improved my score. I was around -12 back in 2007 when I took the LSAT, and I'm now consistently only -3 or -4 on my PTs in prep for the June LSAT.

The logic games section is the most learnable section of the LSAT, IMO. Powerscore does a great job of teaching.

Also, hope you still have GI Bill benefits. GI Bill + Yellow Ribbon = free tuition at a majority of law schools for us vets.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby Nova » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:27 pm

Hey Matt.

Its certainly normal for some games to be more intuitive than others. I suggest buying the logic games by type, so you can identify which games you are weakest on. That way you can focus on many similar games at once. The patterns will eventually set in.

Here,

http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Logic-Games- ... 145372401X

NPVLaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby NPVLaw » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:38 pm

ahnhub,

I don't usually struggle with any particular type, but I notice when something "quirky" is added to a game it tends to eat up more of my time. By the way, when I go back after taking the practice test, I always am able to solve the game, but it may take me up to 20 minutes. So I guess Im not hopeless... just slow? :-)

sinisterkid,
I started out with Kaplan and finished their basic book (except reading comp, which I do pretty well on). I then moved to Manhattan LSAT, which I like very much so far. I understand their techniques, I just lose time when I face a "quirk".

Do you think the powerscore is that much better than manhattan?

And I do have those benefits :-) I take it you are a vet as well?

Nova,
Thank you for the link. I will be listening to everyone's advice to find were I should make my next purchase as far as prep materials go.

Also, for the record:
I am scoring 153-154 right now. I am planning on a June test date. Deadline is this week.

Thanks everyone for your replies!
-Matt

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby Nova » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:51 pm

IMO, Manhattan > PS. Reading both is also a good idea, so you can pick and choose the strategies that work best for you.

rglifberg
Posts: 278
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby rglifberg » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:06 pm

I'd recommend the Velocity logic games course online. I read the LG bible and took a Testmasters course without any LG improvement which killed me on the Feb test b/c I pretty much bombed the entire game section and I got a 153. I did the Velocity course and I am pretty consistently scoring -4 on the games. The course also came with 12 practice tests which was pretty sweet too. I'm consistently scoring 160+ so having been in the same score range as you your score should increase a lot and I'd say give Velocity a shot, I felt it was an easier approach than Testmasters which is very similiar to Powerscore. You can definitely improve a lot on LG. I still never get -0 but I think it's very do-able to get close to it.

humbugger
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:08 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby humbugger » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:57 pm

The best thing to do is to print out every LG (up to about PT 50, save the recent ones for full test practice) and do them all. Search for pithypike's LSAT study plan, which has links to the sorting of games by type. Definitely watch velocity's free video describing the June 2007 games (youtube). His approach is subtly different than PS, and I found it much more reliable than "sit and think really hard until you come up with inferences," which is what PS recommends.

Also, don't take the test in June, your comfort level (and score) is sure to increase much more if you wait until Sept/Oct (or longer if necessary). Speaking from personal experience here.

Also military vet BTW.

NPVLaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby NPVLaw » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:15 pm

humbugger,

Its great to see other vets on here.

If I take it in October, won't that put me at a disadvantage my goal of starting in Fall 2013?

Thanks,
Matt

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby Nova » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:05 am

NPVLaw wrote:humbugger,

Its great to see other vets on here.

If I take it in October, won't that put me at a disadvantage my goal of starting in Fall 2013?

Thanks,
Matt


October is right on time, as long as you have the rest of your app together and are ready to apply soon after you get your score. That also gives you December to retake if you dont do as well as you believe can.

NPVLaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby NPVLaw » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:23 am

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

I have to say that I feel like everytime I take another logic games section, I feel like I am dealing with something new. So far, it seems as if the LSAT designers will design around my preparation, and succesfully discover that I am just a 154 score candidate :-)

Do you feel like improvement from 154 to 160 can really be had?

Right now I am dedicating about 15 hours a week to LSAT Prep.


Thanks,
Matt

User avatar
elterrible78
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:09 am

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby elterrible78 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:26 am

Hey, nice to see another military guy on here! (I'm NG, but on active duty orders...last soldier in the state of New Mexico still on the Southwest Border Mission).

I don't usually struggle with any particular type, but I notice when something "quirky" is added to a game it tends to eat up more of my time. By the way, when I go back after taking the practice test, I always am able to solve the game, but it may take me up to 20 minutes. So I guess Im not hopeless... just slow? :-)


This was EXACTLY my experience. I was fairly consistent on the LR and RC sections, but sometimes a specific game or even an entire LG section, would just throw me. Always because it seemed like something "new" was introduced. The way I tackled it was to just keep drilling sections that I had done, over and over. Obviously, I'd want to leave a few days in between doing the same section, but I generally found with LGs that at least the first few times you repeat them, as long as there are 3 or 4 days in between, it's more or less like starting from scratch again. This helped me, I believe, by showing me that there's really nothing fundamentally new in a logic game...just a slight variation on a theme, or a new form of presenting something that is actually pretty fundamental. Also, each time I would do an LG section over (and I always timed myself), I would discover something new about setting it up or making deductions, which I could then add to my stored knowledge.

I think this was super important, because part of the reason I was getting thrown is that whenever I did encounter something new, it would stress me out. When I'd go back to look at it later, I would realize there was nothing new at all, but I just psyched myself out. The more knowledge I added to my LG arsenal through the repetition I described, the calmer I became when encountering this type of thing, and the easier it was to get through it.

I really agree that LG is the easiest to learn. In my first timed PT, I got 14/24 on LG, and that included randomly guessing C on the last 5 questions as time ran out, and the answer actually being C on three of those. Then I read the PS Logic Games Bible (although I have also heard that Manhattan is as good, if not better), and got better at it, but still had that "WTF is this???" meltdown occasionally, which led to drastically lower than average PT scores, and was very psychologically debilitating. Now, though, I am consistently hitting -0/-1, usually with a couple minutes to spare, on LG sections.

Wow, that was a lot.

TL;DR version: I have been in exactly the same spot. Pick up the PS Logic Game Bible if you think it might be a good supplement to what Manhattan has done for you, and drill drill drill.

Good luck!

NPVLaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby NPVLaw » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:39 am

Thank you very much elterrible, your response is very encouraging!

[editedto add]
There are ALOT of us vets on here! This is great :-D

User avatar
elterrible78
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:09 am

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby elterrible78 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:46 am

NPVLaw wrote:Thank you very much elterrible, your response is very encouraging!

There are ALOT of us vets on here! This is great :-D


No problem...there's definitely reason to be optimistic! Just work hard at it, and a 160 is WELL within reach, brother!

humbugger
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:08 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby humbugger » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:17 am

NPVLaw wrote:humbugger,

Its great to see other vets on here.

If I take it in October, won't that put me at a disadvantage my goal of starting in Fall 2013?

Thanks,
Matt


Yeh, a lot of us around here. I think it has to do with being a bit older and more focused, relative to people who are just coming out of college..

As for taking the test later, unfortunately the more important choice is studying for the LSAT for 1.5 months or studying for 3.5 months. Based on my experience trying to study in about one month with no prior knowledge, I can't possibly recommend it. You have to train yourself to think in a completely new way, and a couple extra months will make a big difference.

Anyway, drill those games and always look for the conclusion.

good luck!

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby Nova » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:19 am

NPVLaw wrote:
Do you feel like improvement from 154 to 160 can really be had?

Right now I am dedicating about 15 hours a week to LSAT Prep.


Thanks,
Matt


Hell yeah it can be done. Trust me, the games are systematic and you eventually wont be too suprised. You just have to do all of them over and over. It takes time, but its worth it. When I started prepping I missed 8-10 per LG section. I got it down to 0-3 around game day and went -2 on the test. I am no genius. I used the brute force tactic and just kept drilling all day every day. Like many others on this site I raised my score a ton (149 to 165+).

User avatar
elterrible78
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:09 am

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby elterrible78 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:03 am

Hell yeah it can be done. Trust me, the games are systematic and you eventually wont be too suprised. You just have to do all of them over and over. It takes time, but its worth it. When I started prepping I missed 8-10 per LG section. I got it down to 0-3 around game day and went -2 on the test. I am no genius. I used the brute force tactic and just kept drilling all day every day. Like many others on this site I raised my score a ton (149 to 165+).


It seems like a lot of people are recommending this, and as I stated before, it definitely worked for me. It seems potentially useless to do the same games over and over again, and to be honest, I feel like I know the ins and outs of some of these games pretty thoroughly and I sometimes question the logic (har har) in doing the 9 Grocery Aisles game for the 20th time. But if you think about it in terms of military training it makes perfect sense. We all know how to fire a rifle, we all know the fundamentals of basic rifle marksmanship, but doing the same damn thing over and over just makes you better at it. Muscle memory and all that. It's the same with the Logic Games. Even if it seems like mindless repetition, you're getting better at it sometimes without realizing, and when game day arrives, you're a whole lot better prepared thanks to all those "I'm up, he sees me, I'm downs" that you did, if you will.

rglifberg
Posts: 278
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: High variance in LG Scores

Postby rglifberg » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:18 pm

humbugger wrote: His approach is subtly different than PS, and I found it much more reliable than "sit and think really hard until you come up with inferences," which is what PS recommends.



Completely agree. My problem with the PS and TM approach was that they relied too heavily on making inferences.




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], connordalto, Greenteachurro, StopLawying and 13 guests