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Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:11 pm
by ratner
lol at the based god jokes.

buuuuuut, i'm inclined to disagree with the notion that intellect is not directly correlated to lsat scores. of course, this is a matter of opinion and depends largely on one's own definition of intellect. i have always considered logic to be a very large part of intellect, and thus am inclined to draw a direct correlation between intellect and lsat score.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:14 pm
by bernaldiaz
Jsa725 wrote:Bernaldiaz, ratner et al.,

The LSAT is merely a test that anyone can successfully tackle with enough study time. For some, the test requires less studying, for others, the test requires more studying- 175 is attainable for 100% of LSAT takers.
The LSAT is not a test designed to test intellect; rather, it's a sophisticated reading


I 100% disagree with that. The LSAT tests two things, in my opinion (and this is what makes it a great test):

1) a person's intellect
2) a person's willingness to really study

Regarding my first bullet, I believe that the LSAT is difficult enough that there is a real ceiling for most people. Sure, that ceiling may be pretty high (I would agree that 100% of people can break 160 which is the 77%), but it's not so easy that anyone can "master" the test.

Regarding the second, I think it's a great test because it's not like the SAT where a smart person can show up and dominate the test. With almost no studying, I went into the SAT and got (barely) in the 99th percentile. There is no way in hell I could have done that for the LSAT (although like the real brilliant people may still be able to). It's a test that you have to devote a couple of months to in order to actually hit your upper potential (which like I said above, I pretty firmly believe that exists).

So, if you do well on the LSAT, I think it is fairly safe to say that you 1) are pretty smart 2) have a decent work ethic. That makes it a great test in my opinion.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:15 pm
by bernaldiaz
ratner wrote:lol at the based god jokes.

buuuuuut, i'm inclined to disagree with the notion that intellect is not directly correlated to lsat scores. of course, this is a matter of opinion and depends largely on one's own definition of intellect. i have always considered logic to be a very large part of intellect, and thus am inclined to draw a direct correlation between intellect and lsat score.


100% agree. It is pretty crazy to say that 100% of people can score above 175. Sure studying is a part of success on the test, but to get a score that high you have to be naturally smart.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:15 pm
by hooma
ratner wrote:lol at the based god jokes.

buuuuuut, i'm inclined to disagree with the notion that intellect is not directly correlated to lsat scores. of course, this is a matter of opinion and depends largely on one's own definition of intellect. i have always considered logic to be a very large part of intellect, and thus am inclined to draw a direct correlation between intellect and lsat score.

Man, I wanted to stick up for you before but now you are starting to sound pretty douchey.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:17 pm
by kerflux
I think the fact that it is such an eminently learnable test puts a limit on how great an indicator of intellect it is.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:19 pm
by Jsa725
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Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:21 pm
by ratner
hooma wrote:
ratner wrote:lol at the based god jokes.

buuuuuut, i'm inclined to disagree with the notion that intellect is not directly correlated to lsat scores. of course, this is a matter of opinion and depends largely on one's own definition of intellect. i have always considered logic to be a very large part of intellect, and thus am inclined to draw a direct correlation between intellect and lsat score.

Man, I wanted to stick up for you before but now you are starting to sound pretty douchey.


Sorry, dude. I agree with bernaldiaz in that studying can definitely improve your LSAT score. It's not like you're locked into a score range with whatever intellectual ability, and I would be hard-pressed to say how you could measure intellect or how closely it is related to LSAT potential. But, in my eyes, it's pretty much the same thing as someone who's naturally athletic being a star athlete.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:44 pm
by ampersand5
the lsat is not an intelligence test per se. It definitely tests one's intelligence however it only tests one subset of categories related to intelligence.

I doubt im as conceptually IQ smart as the people who score in the same range as me.
It's about one's natural intelligence, their drive to work hard and how well they are able to figure out the lsat.


My diagnostic was 150 (thats with me being an avid reader and having previously studied logic) and I was able to score pt's as high as 176 with less than two months worth of studying. I'm naturally not as "intelligent" as the people who I know who score in a similar range as me, and I haven't necessarily worked harder, its that I was able to research everything about the lsat and put myself in the best position to succeed.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:49 pm
by Jsa725
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Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:52 pm
by Mr. Pancakes
hooma wrote:
ratner wrote:lol at the based god jokes.

buuuuuut, i'm inclined to disagree with the notion that intellect is not directly correlated to lsat scores. of course, this is a matter of opinion and depends largely on one's own definition of intellect. i have always considered logic to be a very large part of intellect, and thus am inclined to draw a direct correlation between intellect and lsat score.

Man, I wanted to stick up for you before but now you are starting to sound pretty douchey.

I'm going to like you.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:22 pm
by maxmartin
less than 48 hours :D :x

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:27 pm
by yesman2380
maxmartin wrote:less than 48 hours :D :x


but this hasn't been updated yet ... http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/lsats-administered.asp

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:33 pm
by maxmartin
how sure are you they will update this page way ahead of the release date? why can't LSAC just update this page on Friday?

yesman2380 wrote:
maxmartin wrote:less than 48 hours :D :x


but this hasn't been updated yet ... http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/lsats-administered.asp

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:41 pm
by MConchis
Jsa725 wrote:Bernaldiaz, ratner et al.,

Anything is possible!, etc.

I remember hearing in a Robert Sapolsky lecture online (Stanford neurobiologist) that the major standardized tests (SAT, GRE, LSAT) correlate with IQ tests as strongly as IQ test correlate with one another. [claim one] Which is to say: they are IQ tests.

Claim two: IQ scores can increase through familiarity of test style and structure.

Claim three: Claim two does not preclude claim one.

I'll try to find a source. Meanwhile, feel free to substantiate your claims.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:44 pm
by bernaldiaz
MConchis wrote:
Jsa725 wrote:Bernaldiaz, ratner et al.,

Anything is possible!, etc.

I remember hearing in a Robert Sapolsky lecture online (Stanford neurobiologist) that the major standardized tests (SAT, GRE, LSAT) correlate with IQ tests as strongly as IQ test correlate with one another. [claim one] Which is to say: they are IQ tests.

Claim two: IQ scores can increase through familiarity of test style and structure.

Claim three: Claim two does not preclude claim one.

I'll try to find a source. Meanwhile, feel free to substantiate your claims.


Very informative, thanks. It'd be cool if you found that. Tangentially, Mensa accepts the LSAT as a substitute for the IQ test, for whatever that's worth (they are a "High IQ society" that only accepts the top 2% of IQ's)

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:46 pm
by RodionRaskolnikov
--ImageRemoved--

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:50 pm
by RodionRaskolnikov
Image

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:51 pm
by bernaldiaz
That image is like 10 times too big.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:53 pm
by Jsa725
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Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:59 pm
by RodionRaskolnikov
Jsa725 wrote:
MConchis wrote:
Jsa725 wrote:Bernaldiaz, ratner et al.,

Anything is possible!, etc.

I remember hearing in a Robert Sapolsky lecture online (Stanford neurobiologist) that the major standardized tests (SAT, GRE, LSAT) correlate with IQ tests as strongly as IQ test correlate with one another. [claim one] Which is to say: they are IQ tests.

Claim two: IQ scores can increase through familiarity of test style and structure.

Claim three: Claim two does not preclude claim one.

I'll try to find a source. Meanwhile, feel free to substantiate your claims.


If this means intelligence, then I concur...

"What the Test Measures
The LSAT is designed to measure skills that are considered essential for success in law school: the reading and comprehension of complex texts with accuracy and insight; the organization and management of information and the ability to draw reasonable inferences from it; the ability to think critically; and the analysis and evaluation of the reasoning and arguments of others."

Source:http://lsac.org/jd/LSAT/about-the-LSAT.asp


MENSA takes LSAT scores as a substitute for IQ scores to admit people. I think you need to be in the top 95% to get in. So I'd say LSAT does at least somewhat correlate with IQ.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:06 pm
by yesman2380
maxmartin wrote:how sure are you they will update this page way ahead of the release date? why can't LSAC just update this page on Friday?

yesman2380 wrote:
maxmartin wrote:less than 48 hours :D :x


but this hasn't been updated yet ... http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/lsats-administered.asp


i'm not. i'm mainly trying to calm myself down. :|

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:06 pm
by Jsa725
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Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:09 pm
by RodionRaskolnikov
People do get street cred for Mensa but it's not like you can bring it up in a convo... Who talks about Mensa? No one. So when you bring it up, people think you're showing off. And you gotta pay for it so it's... I dunno.

Image

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:10 pm
by MConchis
Jsa725 wrote:
MConchis wrote:
Jsa725 wrote:Bernaldiaz, ratner et al.,

Anything is possible!, etc.

I remember hearing in a Robert Sapolsky lecture online (Stanford neurobiologist) that the major standardized tests (SAT, GRE, LSAT) correlate with IQ tests as strongly as IQ test correlate with one another. [claim one] Which is to say: they are IQ tests.

Claim two: IQ scores can increase through familiarity of test style and structure.

Claim three: Claim two does not preclude claim one.

I'll try to find a source. Meanwhile, feel free to substantiate your claims.


If this means intelligence, then I concur...

"What the Test Measures
The LSAT is designed to measure skills that are considered essential for success in law school: the reading and comprehension of complex texts with accuracy and insight; the organization and management of information and the ability to draw reasonable inferences from it; the ability to think critically; and the analysis and evaluation of the reasoning and arguments of others."

Source:http://lsac.org/jd/LSAT/about-the-LSAT.asp


[I have only a passive, lay interest in this subject, so if anyone else has done actual scholarship on this, please step in.]

My understanding is that, yes, intelligence is this strange, fluid concept that we have no easy way to define, but [!] we do have a basic understanding of certain pieces of the intelligence puzzle. Notably, an individual's 'g-factor', which represents the type of cognitive abilities needed to excel on an IQ test (or LG!). In an article I'm in the middle of reading, Geoffrey Miller et al calls intelligence, "—the most reliably measurable, predictive, heritable construct in the history of psychology" (he's referring to the type of intelligence needed to take the LSAT. --or rather the type of intelligence that correlates with a high diagnostic score) [http://www.unm.edu/~psych/faculty/articles/geher%202007%20ch1.pdf]

...i was going to write a long post, but i'm hungry. Let's continue this discussion later.

Re: February 2012 Waiting Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:14 pm
by FinallyGoing
Jsa725 wrote:Do Mensa members get street cred in the real world, or just among other
Mensa- college professor types?

If so, is that a resume booster? Just curious, I aint that smart...


I'd say its worth at lease some street cred.