Is there any penalty...?

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noleknight16
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Is there any penalty...?

Postby noleknight16 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:12 pm

On some waitlists and I think I can do better on this February test than I did on my first retake. But If you score lower on the 2nd retake than you did on the first, is there a penalty??

I can imagine it looking bad but I assume if they take your highest they don't really care.

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Geetar Man
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:19 pm

noleknight16 wrote:On some waitlists and I think I can do better on this February test than I did on my first retake. But If you score lower on the 2nd retake than you did on the first, is there a penalty??

I can imagine they take your highest and don't really care.


Edited.

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noleknight16
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby noleknight16 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:20 pm

Geetar Man wrote:
noleknight16 wrote:On some waitlists and I think I can do better on this February test than I did on my first retake. But If you score lower on the 2nd retake than you did on the first, is there a penalty??

I can imagine take your highest and don't really care.


Edited.


That's what I thought haha. Good, I can go into this thing with no pressure. It can only help me

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Geetar Man
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:28 pm

noleknight16 wrote:
Geetar Man wrote:
noleknight16 wrote:On some waitlists and I think I can do better on this February test than I did on my first retake. But If you score lower on the 2nd retake than you did on the first, is there a penalty??

I can imagine take your highest and don't really care.


Edited.


That's what I thought haha. Good, I can go into this thing with no pressure. It can only help me



Most schools take the top score. HYS is a different story though, I believe.

Check the schools you intend the score to reflect with. It should be on their website.

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Jeffort
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Jeffort » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:57 am

Since you are already on some wait lists,it depends on the schools you have applied to and are wait listed at.

Current LSAC policy:
http://www.lsac.org/JD/Apply/cas-law-school-reports.asp

Updated Law School Reports

  • If you have a current LSAC Credential Assembly Service file, LSAC will routinely send report updates to law schools to which you have applied at no additional charge
  • whenever you repeat the LSAT within the same admission year;
  • when LSAC receives an updated transcript within the same admission year;
  • when an error in a transcript or its summarization is reported and corrected within the same admission year. A revised official transcript clearly marked as “corrected copy” is necessary to correct transcript errors; and
  • when LSAC receives an additional letter of recommendation/evaluation within the same admission year up to the limit set by the law school. (Each law school can specify at what point in its admission process it will receive letters/evaluations. Therefore, if you apply to multiple schools, some may receive your letters/evaluations sooner than others.)

This must be another recent LSAC policy change because I read an LSAC document on their web page a month or two ago that said they would not automatically notify schools you have applied to about a new LSAT score if you re-take after having applied and that you had to request them to do so. I cannot find that document on their web page now, it seems to have been removed.

Be careful, only re-take again if you are really sure that you can score higher than your already reported scores.

This is the weirdest cycle I've seen in 10+ years and things are in flux due to many changing variables and various policy changes.

One of my main theories about many of the changes is that law school admission committees got fed up with trying to figure out how to evaluate applications from serial test takers with several significantly different scores on record, including some applicants with more than three reported scores/reported cancellations/absences on record from the last three years due to how easy it was to get around the three times in two years limit rules that were in place before the recent policy changes.

Over the last several years many people have been treating taking the LSAT like a roulette wheel or a game of craps in a casino. The newly imposed policy changes seem to be designed in part to put an end to that type of silly gambling mentality behavior.

Even though most schools say they take the highest score, the truth of the matter is that they only have to report the highest LSAT score of admitted students. When evaluating applications they evaluate and consider your whole package, including all reported scores, cancellations, absences, etc. when making admission decisions, no matter what they say on their web page or in their brochures for potential applicants.

In law school you do not get thee bites at the apple do-over/mulligans with exams. The quality/well ranked schools want students that can and will perform well on exams the first and only time they get to take each one. Believe me, law school final exams are significantly harder high stakes pressure filled tests than the LSAT. They make the LSAT look like a high school or typical UG test in comparison.

Good luck making your decision.

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suspicious android
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby suspicious android » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:04 am

Be careful, only re-take again if you are really sure that you can score higher than your already reported scores.


Jeffort, you're freaking this guy out unnecessarily, and giving him bad advice to boot. I know that you have a thing about multiple LSATs, but your personal philosophy about the ridiculousness of so many people taking multiple tests and how that screws with the whole application process (which I don't think is invalid) seems to be getting in the way of what is in the OP's best interests. He's gotta play the game the way it is, not the way it should be.

OP: If you think there is a reasonable chance that you'll score more than a couple points higher than your previous score, it's worth it. The final analysis will involve how much time you have, how close you are to the median at your waitlist schools, how much those schools use the waitlist, and a hundred another factors that I will leave up to you. But honestly, if you were say, 60% confident you could raise your score 3+ points, and in doing so you would go from below median to above median at your target school, the upside is huge, and the downside is... not getting in? Hoping

There's just so much empirical data from years of LSN, and anecdotal evidence from so many people on TLS and IRL students--most schools want that high LSAT, and they'll look past significant blemishes to get it. Multiple absences, cancellations, retakes? They look bad, but not as bad as that below median score.

The current LSAT system is pretty stupid, I'm sure it was much more reasonable when scores averaged scores, and most people just took the test once. But with the system we've got now, re-taking is the rational response for a lot of people.

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Jeffort
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:46 am

suspicious android wrote:
Be careful, only re-take again if you are really sure that you can score higher than your already reported scores.


Jeffort, you're freaking this guy out unnecessarily, and giving him bad advice to boot. I know that you have a thing about multiple LSATs, but your personal philosophy about the ridiculousness of so many people taking multiple tests and how that screws with the whole application process (which I don't think is invalid) seems to be getting in the way of what is in the OP's best interests. He's gotta play the game the way it is, not the way it should be.

OP: If you think there is a reasonable chance that you'll score more than a couple points higher than your previous score, it's worth it. The final analysis will involve how much time you have, how close you are to the median at your waitlist schools, how much those schools use the waitlist, and a hundred another factors that I will leave up to you. But honestly, if you were say, 60% confident you could raise your score 3+ points, and in doing so you would go from below median to above median at your target school, the upside is huge, and the downside is... not getting in? Hoping

There's just so much empirical data from years of LSN, and anecdotal evidence from so many people on TLS and IRL students--most schools want that high LSAT, and they'll look past significant blemishes to get it. Multiple absences, cancellations, retakes? They look bad, but not as bad as that below median score.

The current LSAT system is pretty stupid, I'm sure it was much more reasonable when scores averaged scores, and most people just took the test once. But with the system we've got now, re-taking is the rational response for a lot of people.


If I gave bad advice, then so did you since you said the same thing. Only re-take it if you expect to score higher than you have before.

Being put on a wait list means that you are a marginal applicant for that school and the school is waiting to see if better applicants apply and if the students with stronger applications they accept straight out decide to enroll, submit the deposit and enrollment paperwork. During the last major/most significant decline in applicant and test-taker volume period (1995-1997), many people were stuck in wait-list purgatory for months, some until as late as June-July-early August.

Times have changed dude. Test taker volume has significantly declined and application volume so far this cycle is significantly lower than the previous three cycles.

Many law schools have changed their policies recently/for this cycle. LSAC has made several significant policy changes over the last year. Sorry if it might freak somebody out, but the OP asked a question and I gave a comprehensive answer based on facts and reality.

LSN data from the last three years is not a very reliable basis to make predictions from. It is self reported data from a small self-selecting sample of people that applied and chose to post their progress (hopefully fully and honestly, but there is no guarantee of that).

I talk to numerous admission committee members every year to get an idea about what is currently going on, so my theory is not something I just made up.

Why do you think LSAC added the withdraw registration up to the night before the test option last year before the June test? You think they just did it on a whim? LSAC talks to law schools and responds to their needs and concerns.

Several years ago students could simply not show up for the test and then just re-schedule their test date TWO days AFTER the administration and nothing would show up on their score report. Then there was a ~thee year period where if you did not cancel your registration or re-schedule your test date ~two and a half weeks before the test, you were faced with deciding between pulling an absent or showing up and canceling if you were not ready or something popped up like getting sick or whatever.

Why do you think LSAC changed the policy about getting permission to take the test more than three times in two years and consolidated the authority to grant permission solely with LSAC, now making it extremely difficult to be allowed to take it a fourth or fifth time?

Students frequently also ask about whether schools they have applied to will know if they take the LSAT again after submitting applications. I researched that matter and the policy appears to have recently been changed. If a student re-takes after they've applied, they still should let the schools know just to make sure, but don't count on the schools not being notified otherwise.

If giving a comprehensive answer about the current state of affairs of taking the LSAT and applying to law school freaks somebody out, I'm sorry, but don't shoot the messenger.

.

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suspicious android
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby suspicious android » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am

Seriously, you have some serious hangups about this issue, whenever it comes up you type like 40 pages of stuff about how ridiculous it is for people to take the tests 4 or 5 times and how you're on the phone with adcomms constantly to discuss the state of law school admissions and how much it annoys them. Okay, I'm sure you're plugged in and the admissions folks are thrilled to take your calls and give you the inside scoop.

I quoted a single line which was, to be frank, crappy advice. Here it is again:
Be careful, only re-take again if you are really sure that you can score higher than your already reported scores.


You've said this sort of thing numerous times, and this may be a bit of speculation on my part, but I think it's because you just personally dislike re-taking. It annoys for some reason, and it's very clear in the language and tone you use whenever the topic comes up. Fine, your opinion. But re-taking only if you're "really sure" is just not in the best interests of most students. People re-take, it helps when they do better, it doesn't hurt much when they do worse. We've got lots of evidence for this idea, practically nothing against it except your hearsay evidence about how adcomms feel about it. All the rule changes prove is that law schools would prefer not to deal with requests or have people taking the test 10 times. Makes sense, but it tells us nothing about what they're actually doing with those multiple scores. All evidence about that points to higher scores giving better chance of acceptance, same as always.

You're clearly trying to dissuade the OP from re-taking. That's the tone of your post, and pretty much every post of yours in which the subject comes up. That's what I'm taking issue with.
Last edited by suspicious android on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KevinP
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby KevinP » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:34 am

Outside of a few outliers, the answer is that there won't be a penalty. Almost all schools take the highest LSAT simply because they cannot afford to average.

"Klein and Hamilton (1998) conclude, for example, that 90% of the overall
differences in ranks among schools can be explained by the median LSAT score of their entering classes; this finding
suggests that despite their stated weights, the numerous other factors that comprise the rankings have small effects."

"In the USN formula, LSAT scores account for 12.5% of overall rank. However, Klein and Hamilton (1998)
demonstrate that it is in fact far more determinative of composite rank because variation in LSAT scores accounts for
90% of the variation in the overall ranks of the schools."

Source: http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/Resea ... -07-02.pdf
I highly recommend reading this article, as it reveals a lot about the effects of U.S. News on law schools.

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Jeffort
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:57 am

SA,

I don't know what your issue with me is, but it's silly. We both gave basically the same advice:

OP: If you think there is a reasonable chance that you'll score more than a couple points higher than your previous score, it's worth it. The final analysis will involve how much time you have, how close you are to the median at your waitlist schools, how much those schools use the waitlist, and a hundred another factors that I will leave up to you. But honestly, if you were say, 60% confident you could raise your score 3+ points, and in doing so you would go from below median to above median at your target school, the upside is huge, and the downside is... not getting in? Hoping


It's worth doing if (s)he is likely to score better than before.

We don't know if OP is wait listed at Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3 schools.

You are correct that if the score is lower and the applications are for Tier 3 schools, they will not care, and many Tier 2 schools probably will not care either, but some of them will, hence a downside. If OP is wait listed at Tier 1 schools, they will certainly care and there is a downside. If the OP really wants to go to one of those schools, it's best not to do something that could diminish the chances of being removed from the wait list and accepted.

I don't understand why you are getting hostile with me for providing valid information to somebody that requested it.

OP: If you are confident that you can pull off a higher score, take the test, it's as simple as that.

.
Last edited by Jeffort on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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suspicious android
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby suspicious android » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:04 am

see edit above, about why I'm annoyed, but nevermind, I don't want to get into an argument, it's not a big deal. Sorry.

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Jeffort
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:22 am

suspicious android wrote:see edit above, about why I'm annoyed, but nevermind, I don't want to get into an argument, it's not a big deal. Sorry.


No worries dude, I wasn't trying to dissuade. My intention was just to give relevant info to help the OP make an informed decision, that's all.

I like you SA, you post helpful stuff all the time. Hopefully we're at peace now.

Image

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noleknight16
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby noleknight16 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:08 am

3.6 160 waitlisted at W&L.

I think I can pull of a higher score. I don't see myself falling below 160. The 160 was really low compared to the PTs

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Jeffort
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby Jeffort » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:44 am

noleknight16 wrote:3.6 160 waitlisted at W&L.

I think I can pull of a higher score. I don't see myself falling below 160. The 160 was really low compared to the PTs


Assuming you are in LSAT mode and ready for the test on Saturday, I say take it.

Grab 163-165+ and you should be good to go.

I hope things go well and work out well. W&L is a great law school.

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furcifer
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Re: Is there any penalty...?

Postby furcifer » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:47 am

Depends on the school. I say if you think you can do better, retake it. If you walk out of there thinking you stunk it up you can cancel the score (if you are quick abou it)




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