Extended Time

keyanaut
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Re: Extended Time

Postby keyanaut » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:18 am

itsirtou wrote:
keyanaut wrote:Anyone know how someone would fair after recently having one eye severed in a car accident? It strains me having only one working eye. My bad eye provides double vision issues, so it's tough.


How recent is recent? I'm in essentially the same boat -- I can only use one eye, with double vision if I attempt to use both. If it's very recent, your muscles might be underdeveloped enough in your now-dominant eye that a doctor would say that your ability to read is diminished. But idk...I kind of doubt you can get an accommodation for it unless it was super-recent and you haven't had time to adapt physically to it.



About 14 months ago. But I just had a craniofacial surgery to rebuild my cheek using skull matter about 2 weeks ago. Still taking predniselone steroid drops with 2 other eye drops. It just gets hard focusing between two sets of words, one blurring over the other.

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89vision
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Re: Extended Time

Postby 89vision » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:42 am

keyanaut wrote:
itsirtou wrote:
keyanaut wrote:Anyone know how someone would fair after recently having one eye severed in a car accident? It strains me having only one working eye. My bad eye provides double vision issues, so it's tough.


How recent is recent? I'm in essentially the same boat -- I can only use one eye, with double vision if I attempt to use both. If it's very recent, your muscles might be underdeveloped enough in your now-dominant eye that a doctor would say that your ability to read is diminished. But idk...I kind of doubt you can get an accommodation for it unless it was super-recent and you haven't had time to adapt physically to it.



About 14 months ago. But I just had a craniofacial surgery to rebuild my cheek using skull matter about 2 weeks ago. Still taking predniselone steroid drops with 2 other eye drops. It just gets hard focusing between two sets of words, one blurring over the other.



Sorry to hear that. My mom almost had her eye removed when she was in her early 20s, and she is going to go blind in that eye in the future. Best of luck to you.

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89vision
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Re: Extended Time

Postby 89vision » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:50 am

Sorry if I sounded like a dick, but it's frustrating when people who don't understand bipolar disorder make ignorant statements. I have had serious issues, ranging from suicide attempts to pyschotic episodes to drug addiction, and it's very real. I have rapid cycling, and there is no quick fix. I just am trying to say I am not an idiot, and the LSAT (and even SAT) are extremely difficult to sit/focus through. All I want is some insight on the process of extended time, I don't want a debate or people telling me I don't have a real problem. I am looking for helpful advice, nothing else.

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TommyK
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Re: Extended Time

Postby TommyK » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:49 am

Fyo'Couch wrote:Does anyone know if LSAC provides accommodations for other "performance anxiety" related issues? I've had over 6 medical professionals diagnose me with erectile dysfunction and confirm that because this defect is cognitive in origin, it likely impairs my "performance" in all major life events. During my prep, I was regularly cycling Cialis and testing consistently in the 170's. During my recent December sitting however, I decided not to take any the morning of for fear of prompting a "major distraction" at my testing center and scored a measly 169 (ironic, I know). Does anyone know if LSAC provides accommodations for this sort of thing?
Thanks.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I have a history of great performances before being diagnosed with this debilitating condition. In grade 7, I lead the junior boys basketball team in minutes played, and assist/turnover ratio along with placing in the top 5 in many other defensive metrics. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I was probably the 3rd best point guard at my school (including grade 8's).


166... not bad.

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ben4847
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Re: Extended Time

Postby ben4847 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:09 am

I dunno.

So you are brilliant, but have a mental illness which impairs you.
Some people are not as smart, but don't have a mental illness which impairs them. And might on average perform exactly as well as you.
Some people are very deep thinkers, but can't do it quickly.
Some people are very quick, but have pretty shallow analysis.

I don't really see how your weakness is qualitatively different than my weakness.

You say that you will be able to practice law according to your true ability, because you will spend more time preparing out of court.
I say I will practice law according to my true ability, because I will also spend more time preparing out of court. (or more time in the office, or whatever you plan to do.)
Or, if I am not so smart, I will practice according to my true ability by regularly consulting with other attorneys, and they'll be willing to help me because I will sleep with them.

I also have ways in which I compensate for my weaknesses. So if I usually compensate by using extra time, why shouldn't I get extra time also?

If I compensate by making my work environment "just so," why shouldn't I get that also?

phx
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Re: Extended Time

Postby phx » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:16 am

Given that accommodated test scores are not included in the schools' median calculations, practices vary widely as to how those scores are treated from school to school. With this in mind, and since you're test day performance was in line with the average PT to test day point drop, I'm not sure that it would be worth it to undergo the tests and appeals for extra time. *shrug*

If it's important enough to you then you don't need anyone else's opinion.

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89vision
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Re: Extended Time

Postby 89vision » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:51 am

ben4847 wrote:I dunno.

So you are brilliant, but have a mental illness which impairs you.
Some people are not as smart, but don't have a mental illness which impairs them. And might on average perform exactly as well as you.
Some people are very deep thinkers, but can't do it quickly.
Some people are very quick, but have pretty shallow analysis.

I don't really see how your weakness is qualitatively different than my weakness.

You say that you will be able to practice law according to your true ability, because you will spend more time preparing out of court.
I say I will practice law according to my true ability, because I will also spend more time preparing out of court. (or more time in the office, or whatever you plan to do.)
Or, if I am not so smart, I will practice according to my true ability by regularly consulting with other attorneys, and they'll be willing to help me because I will sleep with them.

I also have ways in which I compensate for my weaknesses. So if I usually compensate by using extra time, why shouldn't I get extra time also?

If I compensate by making my work environment "just so," why shouldn't I get that also?



Again, it is extremely well documented that my illness impairs my concentration significantly and regularly. If you had an issue that resulted in the same effects, I wouldn't have an issue with you receiving extended time. Again, this really isn't answering my question. I have two years of extensive documentation, it's not ficticious, and I'm wondering what I needed to do in order to receive accommodations I can have at my university. This isn't about what other people think my illness does to my functioning, because that has been established by professionals. It's about how to go about getting extended time. I trust what my doctor's say.

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89vision
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Re: Extended Time

Postby 89vision » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:51 am

duplicate post

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TommyK
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Re: Extended Time

Postby TommyK » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:53 pm

89 - I don't think people have an issue with granting accommodations to those with non-relevant disabilities (e.g., wheelchair ramps at courthouses, allowing for a reader or brail version of the LSAT, etc). What these questions are suggesting is that disabilities affecting cognition may not be non-relevant - but instead, they get to the very heart of being an effective law student and lawyer and thus shouldn't be isolated out of the LSAT by granting extra time.

I don't think many people are really questioning your disorder. I imagine most people take it on your authority that it is genuine and horrible. I also imagine most people sympathize and empathize for you. They're just questioning whether that should be compensated for.

I think it's a fair question, but I sincerely doubt it's the right forum. Making somebody who seems fairly sensitive about their mental health, its legitimacy as far as a disability, and its effects on his/her life defend themself seems unproductive to progressing the conversation as a whole and unnecessarily mean.

For my own thoughts, I'm overwhelingly ambivalent. I do, however, think this is equivalent to the debate whether that Oscar Pistorius should be allowed to compete in the Olympics with his spring-enhanced prostheses: It's interesting to think about where that line should be drawn if it should be drawn at all, but beyond that completely irrelevant to my life. Since extra time is granted so rarely, I sincerely doubt your (and those also granted additional accommodations) increased performance is going to affect us. So good luck.

FreeLPeltier
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Re: Extended Time

Postby FreeLPeltier » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:32 am

89vision,
It is possible to get extra time but the process LSAC uses is prohibitively cumbersome. They require you to demonstrate (prove) that you have undergone a battery of diagnostic tests that are very involved and very costly. After you satisfy their demands, they “interpret” your test results, and then consider the possibility of allowing you to have extended time (even if you meet their criteria, there is no guarantee). It would almost be worth it to spend the 5k you are going to have to pay for your diagnosis on a specialized trainer to help you cope with the stress and develop personalized strategies.

And no… I am not a life coach – nor do I have some service to sell or recommend.

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Leaborb192
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Re: Extended Time

Postby Leaborb192 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:02 am

89vision wrote:Has anyone received it? I have during UG, and all I needed was a Dr.'s note. I plan to call LSAC tomorrow. I read LSAC's policy and it seems like you need to undergo a ton of testing. Is this covered under insurance? Would I be able to do this in time for the Feb. test? I have a documented mental illness, and my registered with disability services at my college. After I found the right medication, I had a 3.5, 3.6, 3.75, 4.0, 3.75. I wrote an addendum to my top school about not being aware of LSAC extended time, but that I had registered with my school. I have tried ADD medications for my disorder, but they always lower my score. Right now, I am at the median of my top school, above at my safeties, and slightly below the LSAT at other schools (1-3 pts) while at or above the GPA median.

I am really discouraged about the state of things right now, and would really appreciate any support or insight. My average was 5 pts higher than my actual test, and I feel like an idiot right now. 99th percentile IQ when proctored in 2nd grade, 96th+ SAT without studying, so I am not stupid. I did study for the LSAT, but I have a medical condition which impacts my concentration and focus in a serious manner. I never scored lower than a B in an in class test, with 3/4 of those being A-/A. I would really like to hear back from people with similar experiences. I'm really down right now.



I study Psych and know about *most* of the disorders under the DSM rainbow- borderline personality being one of my favorites to study-, but here's a link to a PDF file that addresses this issue. I don't know if you've looked at it, but I'm leaving it anyway. http://www.lsac.org/JD/pdfs/GuidelinesCognitive.pdf. If you have to take tests to ensure that you qualify, that coupled with sufficient documentation, will more than prove as adequate in my opinion. Obviously you are not the first individual with a disorder to need extra time on the exam otherwise they wouldn't even have any information on this issue. All I can say is: I wish you luck and hope you score the best you can regardless of the testing conditions. :D

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: Extended Time

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:28 pm

TommyK wrote:89 - I don't think people have an issue with granting accommodations to those with non-relevant disabilities (e.g., wheelchair ramps at courthouses, allowing for a reader or brail version of the LSAT, etc). What these questions are suggesting is that disabilities affecting cognition may not be non-relevant - but instead, they get to the very heart of being an effective law student and lawyer and thus shouldn't be isolated out of the LSAT by granting extra time.

I don't think many people are really questioning your disorder. I imagine most people take it on your authority that it is genuine and horrible. I also imagine most people sympathize and empathize for you. They're just questioning whether that should be compensated for.

I think it's a fair question, but I sincerely doubt it's the right forum. Making somebody who seems fairly sensitive about their mental health, its legitimacy as far as a disability, and its effects on his/her life defend themself seems unproductive to progressing the conversation as a whole and unnecessarily mean.

For my own thoughts, I'm overwhelingly ambivalent. I do, however, think this is equivalent to the debate whether that Oscar Pistorius should be allowed to compete in the Olympics with his spring-enhanced prostheses: It's interesting to think about where that line should be drawn if it should be drawn at all, but beyond that completely irrelevant to my life. Since extra time is granted so rarely, I sincerely doubt your (and those also granted additional accommodations) increased performance is going to affect us. So good luck.


I think this is a common misunderstanding of a disability. There is one's academic ability, and there is one's academic achievement (output). A disability causes a gap to occur between ability and achievement, with the former being higher than the latter. When a disabled person takes a test w/o accommodations, the results from that test are not an accurate portrayal of that person's ability . By using accommodations to diminish the natural disadvantages that disabled person has, the hope is that test results will be more indicative of that person's actual ability. The analogy of the prosthesis leg might not be valid given that his prosthesis might give him an advantage, rather than diminishing a disadvantage for the purpose of making things equal.

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ben4847
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Re: Extended Time

Postby ben4847 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Ohiobumpkin wrote:
TommyK wrote:89 - I don't think people have an issue with granting accommodations to those with non-relevant disabilities (e.g., wheelchair ramps at courthouses, allowing for a reader or brail version of the LSAT, etc). What these questions are suggesting is that disabilities affecting cognition may not be non-relevant - but instead, they get to the very heart of being an effective law student and lawyer and thus shouldn't be isolated out of the LSAT by granting extra time.

I don't think many people are really questioning your disorder. I imagine most people take it on your authority that it is genuine and horrible. I also imagine most people sympathize and empathize for you. They're just questioning whether that should be compensated for.

I think it's a fair question, but I sincerely doubt it's the right forum. Making somebody who seems fairly sensitive about their mental health, its legitimacy as far as a disability, and its effects on his/her life defend themself seems unproductive to progressing the conversation as a whole and unnecessarily mean.

For my own thoughts, I'm overwhelingly ambivalent. I do, however, think this is equivalent to the debate whether that Oscar Pistorius should be allowed to compete in the Olympics with his spring-enhanced prostheses: It's interesting to think about where that line should be drawn if it should be drawn at all, but beyond that completely irrelevant to my life. Since extra time is granted so rarely, I sincerely doubt your (and those also granted additional accommodations) increased performance is going to affect us. So good luck.


I think this is a common misunderstanding of a disability. There is one's academic ability, and there is one's academic achievement (output). A disability causes a gap to occur between ability and achievement, with the former being higher than the latter. When a disabled person takes a test w/o accommodations, the results from that test are not an accurate portrayal of that person's ability . By using accommodations to diminish the natural disadvantages that disabled person has, the hope is that test results will be more indicative of that person's actual ability. The analogy of the prosthesis leg might not be valid given that his prosthesis might give him an advantage, rather than diminishing a disadvantage for the purpose of making things equal.


Sure, but instead of being philosophers, we should look at what we are trying to accomplish with our policies.

The point of the LSAT is to serve as an indicator of future law school achievement. The point of law school exams is to serve as an indicator of future legal achievements. That is their purpose, whatever you think of their efficacy.

Thus, an accommodation on the LSAT should only be given if it will not affect the way in which it indicates law school achievement. And on law school exams only if it will not affect the way in which they indicate legal achievement. And that is the only thing we should be talking about.

Instead, we are treated to ranting about the ADA, and about how someone really is much smarter than us.

So for example, if someone has a physical disability, such as they are allergic to pencils, I would easily support them being allowed to use a pen and being graded by hand. Since as a law student, you are not required to use pencils.

On the other extreme, if someone has a disability such that they cannot follow directions (maybe they were abused and now cannot ever follow any directions from anyone), I do not support them being allowed to not follow directions on the LSAT, since it will destroy for them the predictive purpose of the LSAT. Even though they can get the same accommodation in law school, and then they can work as a solo practitioner. The LSAT should not be selling out its purpose.

Now, as it happens, LSAC does put a notation on the score, so nothing is lost. In fact, it is to the accommodated people's benefit that LSAC still polices who they allow to get the accommodation, since law schools can now use the notated score with some amount of confidence.

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TommyK
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Re: Extended Time

Postby TommyK » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:39 pm

Ohiobumpkin wrote:I think this is a common misunderstanding of a disability. There is one's academic ability, and there is one's academic achievement (output). A disability causes a gap to occur between ability and achievement, with the former being higher than the latter. When a disabled person takes a test w/o accommodations, the results from that test are not an accurate portrayal of that person's ability . By using accommodations to diminish the natural disadvantages that disabled person has, the hope is that test results will be more indicative of that person's actual ability. The analogy of the prosthesis leg might not be valid given that his prosthesis might give him an advantage, rather than diminishing a disadvantage for the purpose of making things equal.


huh? Did you even read what I wrote? Or do you just start randomly typing words, hoping to make a relevant response?

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: Extended Time

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:37 pm

TommyK wrote:
Ohiobumpkin wrote:I think this is a common misunderstanding of a disability. There is one's academic ability, and there is one's academic achievement (output). A disability causes a gap to occur between ability and achievement, with the former being higher than the latter. When a disabled person takes a test w/o accommodations, the results from that test are not an accurate portrayal of that person's ability . By using accommodations to diminish the natural disadvantages that disabled person has, the hope is that test results will be more indicative of that person's actual ability. The analogy of the prosthesis leg might not be valid given that his prosthesis might give him an advantage, rather than diminishing a disadvantage for the purpose of making things equal.


huh? Did you even read what I wrote? Or do you just start randomly typing words, hoping to make a relevant response?


Took your original post to mean that learning disabled persons should not receive accommodations, given the possibility that their LSAT scores would be inflated. I was responding to what I thought was your belief that accommodations are an advantage (prosthesis analogy?). Sorry for misunderstanding your post. No need to be snarky.

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kerflux
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Re: Extended Time

Postby kerflux » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:52 pm

Fyo'Couch wrote:Does anyone know if LSAC provides accommodations for other "performance anxiety" related issues? I've had over 6 medical professionals diagnose me with erectile dysfunction and confirm that because this defect is cognitive in origin, it likely impairs my "performance" in all major life events. During my prep, I was regularly cycling Cialis and testing consistently in the 170's. During my recent December sitting however, I decided not to take any the morning of for fear of prompting a "major distraction" at my testing center and scored a measly 169 (ironic, I know). Does anyone know if LSAC provides accommodations for this sort of thing?
Thanks.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I have a history of great performances before being diagnosed with this debilitating condition. In grade 7, I lead the junior boys basketball team in minutes played, and assist/turnover ratio along with placing in the top 5 in many other defensive metrics. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I was probably the 3rd best point guard at my school (including grade 8's).


you're cute!

First of all, thank you for sharing that with us - I know it can be particularly hard to come. forward with that kind of vulnerability. Your success on the boy's basketball team is highly relevant, perhaps even more so than vision's 2nd grade IQ test. Since we're on the subject of extraneous and outdated achievements, I would like to add that I won the *edit* district-wide *edit* fifth-grade spelling bee.

Seriously, though, maybe I was a little harsh on you, Vision - my intent wasn't to attack you. It just seems like you're out looking for excuses to get a leg up because of a condition that you are worsening with illicit drug use. You're using them to regulate your mood...? I must have also not read the post where you tell us that you're a psychiatrist, and that klonopin is what you have prescribed yourself for mood regulation. It's clear that securing extra time on the LSAT is a big deal to you, so, hey, I wish you the best... but if you expect others to go out of their way to accommodate your condition, why are you intentionally worsening it? Anyway, good luck

justbubbles
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Re: Extended Time

Postby justbubbles » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:04 pm

These repetitive discussions are somewhat pointless.

Most ad comms at reputed schools (T14 / Tier 1) will only give serious consideration to those with documented disabilities, if the applicant:

* Has been granted accommodations by LSAC (this is the ultimate litmus test, unfortunately);
* Has been granted accommodations all through undergrad (documented on the transcripts);
* Has a lifelong disability that is documented through a lengthy medical history.

The rest with a "spur of the moment cause" won't be able to garner much sympathy, if any, from the ad comms.




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