16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

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cogitoergosum
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby cogitoergosum » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:49 pm

From the Fordham thread:
SDPalmTree wrote:Just FYI - I was at the LA reception last night and they said that about 380 people had placed deposits, and they were looking to fill about 100 more seats for the Fall. Proably more will be accepted off the waitlist than that as the higher ranked schools pull some of the depositers away from Fordham in May.

Not sure what's normal for Fordham, but that sounds like a LOT of WL action...

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:56 pm

tagging.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:36 pm

cogitoergosum wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:Something to add to our mix of statistics and conjecture, this is fresh off Kathryn Espiritu's Twitter (she's Director of Admissions @ Fordham):

4/16 has come and gone - deposits were aplenty. what does this mean for WL candidates? email update to go out tomorrow.

I don't know... it's just not what I would have expected if there's such a dearth of qualified applicants. And to be honest, I was surprised by how non-aggressive Fordham is with scholarship funds etc. If they're sitting pretty, is this the beginning of the end of our dream of an epic cycle? Thoughts?


Even if only a handful of people deposited at Fordham I'd assume the admissions director would issue a vague statement. That said, I would love to read the "Shit Shit WE ARE ADMITTING THE WHOLE WAITLIST!!!! PLEASE DEPOSIT!!!!" twitter post from a few schools.

Well, she didn't have to say anything. It's not like she was put on the spot and had to give an answer - In that case I'd be suspicious of a person bluffing a little. But this was an unsolicited comment... To me it looks more like it's legit and she's just trying to soften the blow for those waiting.

I hope, for the sake of our much anticipated WL acceptances to YHS etc., that I'm wrong, but it looks like a possible leading indicator that this cycle might be business as usual.


Guess this conclusion was a little too hasty.

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cogitoergosum
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby cogitoergosum » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:02 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:Something to add to our mix of statistics and conjecture, this is fresh off Kathryn Espiritu's Twitter (she's Director of Admissions @ Fordham):

4/16 has come and gone - deposits were aplenty. what does this mean for WL candidates? email update to go out tomorrow.

I don't know... it's just not what I would have expected if there's such a dearth of qualified applicants. And to be honest, I was surprised by how non-aggressive Fordham is with scholarship funds etc. If they're sitting pretty, is this the beginning of the end of our dream of an epic cycle? Thoughts?


Even if only a handful of people deposited at Fordham I'd assume the admissions director would issue a vague statement. That said, I would love to read the "Shit Shit WE ARE ADMITTING THE WHOLE WAITLIST!!!! PLEASE DEPOSIT!!!!" twitter post from a few schools.

Well, she didn't have to say anything. It's not like she was put on the spot and had to give an answer - In that case I'd be suspicious of a person bluffing a little. But this was an unsolicited comment... To me it looks more like it's legit and she's just trying to soften the blow for those waiting.

I hope, for the sake of our much anticipated WL acceptances to YHS etc., that I'm wrong, but it looks like a possible leading indicator that this cycle might be business as usual.


Guess this conclusion was a little too hasty.

Cool.

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LSAT Blog
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby LSAT Blog » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:10 pm

cogitoergosum wrote:From the Fordham thread:
SDPalmTree wrote:Just FYI - I was at the LA reception last night and they said that about 380 people had placed deposits, and they were looking to fill about 100 more seats for the Fall. Proably more will be accepted off the waitlist than that as the higher ranked schools pull some of the depositers away from Fordham in May.

Not sure what's normal for Fordham, but that sounds like a LOT of WL action...


It certainly does.

In related news, on the question of how law schools will react to falling applicant numbers:

UC Hastings just announced a permanent 20% reduction in class size:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... tings.html

context:
http://legalpad.typepad.com/my_weblog/2 ... on-30.html

mijenks
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby mijenks » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:22 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:From the Fordham thread:
SDPalmTree wrote:Just FYI - I was at the LA reception last night and they said that about 380 people had placed deposits, and they were looking to fill about 100 more seats for the Fall. Proably more will be accepted off the waitlist than that as the higher ranked schools pull some of the depositers away from Fordham in May.

Not sure what's normal for Fordham, but that sounds like a LOT of WL action...


It certainly does.

In related news, on the question of how law schools will react to falling applicant numbers:

UC Hastings just announced a permanent 20% reduction in class size:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... tings.html

context:
http://legalpad.typepad.com/my_weblog/2 ... on-30.html


Tuition for California residents will be $46,500 in 2012-13 (up from $20,900 in 2004-05).

:shock:

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boredatwork
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby boredatwork » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:47 pm

We are all missing the point. Screw law school, lets go work for LSAC. I can live with $322,827 plus bonuses.

nkp007
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby nkp007 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:36 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:
polkij333 wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:Something to add to our mix of statistics and conjecture, this is fresh off Kathryn Espiritu's Twitter (she's Director of Admissions @ Fordham):

4/16 has come and gone - deposits were aplenty. what does this mean for WL candidates? email update to go out tomorrow.

I don't know... it's just not what I would have expected if there's such a dearth of qualified applicants. And to be honest, I was surprised by how non-aggressive Fordham is with scholarship funds etc. If they're sitting pretty, is this the beginning of the end of our dream of an epic cycle? Thoughts?


Even if only a handful of people deposited at Fordham I'd assume the admissions director would issue a vague statement. That said, I would love to read the "Shit Shit WE ARE ADMITTING THE WHOLE WAITLIST!!!! PLEASE DEPOSIT!!!!" twitter post from a few schools.

Well, she didn't have to say anything. It's not like she was put on the spot and had to give an answer - In that case I'd be suspicious of a person bluffing a little. But this was an unsolicited comment... To me it looks more like it's legit and she's just trying to soften the blow for those waiting.

I hope, for the sake of our much anticipated WL acceptances to YHS etc., that I'm wrong, but it looks like a possible leading indicator that this cycle might be business as usual.


Guess this conclusion was a little too hasty.


I think Fordham probably assumed it was business as usual too...OOPS

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LSAT Blog
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby LSAT Blog » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:46 pm

boredatwork wrote:We are all missing the point. Screw law school, lets go work for LSAC. I can live with $322,827 plus bonuses.


Why not shoot for the moon and start your own law school? As dean emeritus, you can have a very cushy retirement.

The current dean of Cooley Law School received $523,213 in total compensation (2009 IRS Form 990 - page 35 of PDF) and travels first-class. Some professors make around $220,000 in total compensation.

The founder and dean emeritus received $370,245 in total compensation (same filing) and is listed as working 10 hours a week (page 56). I'd suspect he works far less than that. The school's filing doesn't describe him as currently having any official duties and lists him simply as "Former President/Dean Emeritus." The school's website says he retired in 2002. (You may know him as the inventor of the Cooley Rankings.)

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KevinP
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby KevinP » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:35 am

^
To be fair, the dean of the "second" best law school in the country deserves to be nicely compensated. The "Business & Industry" workers that Cooley provides are invaluable.

@Hastings:
This was some time ago, but still relevant.
http://www.moodys.com/research/MOODYS-D ... -PR_242368

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emkay625
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby emkay625 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:42 am

boredatwork wrote:We are all missing the point. Screw law school, lets go work for LSAC. I can live with $322,827 plus bonuses.


????!!!!!?????!!!! Seriously????!!!!!!!! Why the heck are we all gunning for Big Law?!?!

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TatNurner
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby TatNurner » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:31 am

emkay625 wrote:
boredatwork wrote:We are all missing the point. Screw law school, lets go work for LSAC. I can live with $322,827 plus bonuses.


????!!!!!?????!!!! Seriously????!!!!!!!! Why the heck are we all gunning for Big Law?!?!


This is a the bio of LSAC's president. Doesn't seem like a job you just walk into:

Daniel O. Bernstine is the President of the Law School Admission Council. For the last decade, he served as president of Portland State University in Oregon. He was also dean of the University of Wisconsin Law School from 1990 to 1997. Dean Bernstine obtained his BA at the University of California, Berkeley (1969), a JD at Northwestern University School of Law (1972), and an LLM at the University of Wisconsin School of Law (1975). Prior to his tenure at Wisconsin, Dean Bernstine was a professor of law and interim dean at Howard University (1988-1990). He served as general counsel at Howard University and Howard University Hospital (1987-1990). He was the William H. Hastie Teaching Fellow at Wisconsin and a staff attorney for the US Department of Labor early in his career. He has been a visiting professor and lecturer all over the world, including Taiwan, Germany, and Cuba, and additional US law schools. For three successive summers (1983-1986), Dean Bernstine was director of CLEO’s Regional Summer Institute at Wisconsin. In 1991-1992, Dean Bernstine co-chaired the LSAC Minority Affairs Committee’s LSAC/HBCU Work Group.


http://www.ohio.edu/prelawday/bios.html

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boredatwork
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby boredatwork » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:44 am

Nope, that is the salary for a member of his staff. "the officers earned salaries of $375,707, $322,827, etc.--plus supplemental payments ranging from $75,000 to $100,000 in 2008."

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TatNurner
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby TatNurner » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:15 am

boredatwork wrote:Nope, that is the salary for a member of his staff. "the officers earned salaries of $375,707, $322,827, etc.--plus supplemental payments ranging from $75,000 to $100,000 in 2008."



Fair enough. Doesn't take away from the point that these wouldn't be easy jobs to get.

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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby American_in_China » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Supposedly UChicago is shrinking to 190. Usually they're around 210, so they shrunk by 10% this year to deal with the drop in applicants.
I think we've discovered what the response for a lot of schools is, at least this cycle- just shrink to preserve numbers so you don't drop in the rankings.

nkp007
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby nkp007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:29 pm

American_in_China wrote:Supposedly UChicago is shrinking to 190. Usually they're around 210, so they shrunk by 10% this year to deal with the drop in applicants.
I think we've discovered what the response for a lot of schools is, at least this cycle- just shrink to preserve numbers so you don't drop in the rankings.


How do you know this?

Shrinking classes like this shrinks schools' bottom lines directly. It's an expensive way to maintain numbers, especially for a school that can fill up their class regardless.

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thelawyler
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby thelawyler » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:54 pm

It's better than shrinking your reputation by accepting students of supposed less quality than your peers.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:01 pm

American_in_China wrote:Supposedly UChicago is shrinking to 190. Usually they're around 210, so they shrunk by 10% this year to deal with the drop in applicants.
I think we've discovered what the response for a lot of schools is, at least this cycle- just shrink to preserve numbers so you don't drop in the rankings.


190 is the norm for Chicago.

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cogitoergosum
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby cogitoergosum » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:48 pm

From the BC thread...
GoUBears wrote:I spoke with the admissions office last week and they said they had a higher yield than they expected of admitted students saying yes. (Weird because I heard this same info from another school too). They don't expect any wait list movement this year. :(

:?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:10 pm

cogitoergosum wrote:From the BC thread...
GoUBears wrote:I spoke with the admissions office last week and they said they had a higher yield than they expected of admitted students saying yes. (Weird because I heard this same info from another school too). They don't expect any wait list movement this year. :(

:?


The yield being higher than expected doesn't mean admissions standards are equally difficult. If anything, a quick look at LSN shows things were a bit easier at BC this year.

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cogitoergosum
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby cogitoergosum » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
cogitoergosum wrote:From the BC thread...
GoUBears wrote:I spoke with the admissions office last week and they said they had a higher yield than they expected of admitted students saying yes. (Weird because I heard this same info from another school too). They don't expect any wait list movement this year. :(

:?


The yield being higher than expected doesn't mean admissions standards are equally difficult. If anything, a quick look at LSN shows things were a bit easier at BC this year.

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess schools can make the adjustment on the front end by admitting applicants who are statistically less impressive, or on the back end by going to the waitlist more. At this point I personally am hoping to see the latter!

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LSAT Blog
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby LSAT Blog » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:34 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
American_in_China wrote:Supposedly UChicago is shrinking to 190. Usually they're around 210, so they shrunk by 10% this year to deal with the drop in applicants.
I think we've discovered what the response for a lot of schools is, at least this cycle- just shrink to preserve numbers so you don't drop in the rankings.


190 is the norm for Chicago.


Correct. I recently did a post on the size of recent incoming classes at each T14 school. Found that UChicago's Class of 2014 is 191.

--LinkRemoved--

nkp007
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby nkp007 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

I mentioned a few months ago that this cycle is gearing up to be "epic". There was some understandable skepticism at the time.

If you look at the Harvard applicants thread, there is some proof of how epically ridiculous the cycle has become. Now, this may not be because of the reduced number of applicants, but I'm guessing the stresses of a non-cookie cutter cycle and two deans are taking their toll.

E.G. An applicant who was rejected a while ago just got a waitlist e-mail.
E.G. 2 An applicant who withdrew just got invited to an interview.
E.G. 3 "Just got waitlisted lol, my waitlist form still had the track changes made to it in word"


viewtopic.php?f=7&t=162633&start=5775
Last edited by nkp007 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thelawyler
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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby thelawyler » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:36 pm

I really hope this thread delivers.

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Re: 16.9% Decrease In October Test Takers(Detailed Stats Inside)

Postby LSAT Blog » Mon May 07, 2012 12:16 pm

thelawyler wrote:I really hope this thread delivers.


From: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=184369
Paul Campos wrote:I've been following the admissions process for law schools this cycle pretty closely in conjunction with a research project I'm doing, and here are a couple of bits of information people might find helpful:

(1) A lot of schools, and especially a lot of Tier One schools outside the T-14, have gotten significantly fewer seat deposits than they normally have at this point in the cycle. One school in the middle of the top tier has less than half its normal seat deposits as of early May. That's an extreme case but a bunch of schools are down 20%-30% from historical yields.

(2) Because of (1) schools are pulling way more people off wait lists than normal, and offering much more money than they normally would to WL admits.

In general, anybody who has just been admitted to any school outside the T-14 -- and maybe even to a couple within it -- is in a position to drive a hard bargain.

Remember that the key to negotiating is that you have to be willing to walk away. Only then will you find out what the other party's real bottom line is.




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