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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:24 pm 
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addy11 wrote:
Odd... didn't Harvard's numbers go up? Also, were these schools picked randomly or were they just a few of the most egregious drops in each of the "bands"?

I couldn't find Harvard's medians, but their 25th/75th LSAT stayed the same. Their 25th GPA stayed the same and their 75th GPA increased from 3.96 to 3.97.

I chose these schools because the data for them were readily available; I couldn't find the data for the number of applicants for the other schools. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure if these data are representative, or, by coincidence, I chose schools with the most egregious drops.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:54 pm 
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KevinP wrote:
addy11 wrote:
Odd... didn't Harvard's numbers go up? Also, were these schools picked randomly or were they just a few of the most egregious drops in each of the "bands"?

I couldn't find Harvard's medians, but their 25th/75th LSAT stayed the same. Their 25th GPA stayed the same and their 75th GPA increased from 3.96 to 3.97.

I chose these schools because the data for them were readily available; I couldn't find the data for the number of applicants for the other schools. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure if these data are representative, or, by coincidence, I chose schools with the most egregious drops.


Ah, OK. I wonder how the numbers stayed the same in the face of such a proportional drop. I know there are a million ways they could achieve this (and all are fun to speculate about), but it seems like marginal candidates not applying combined with a shift to hard numbers over softs were the likely culprits.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:43 am 
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I've said this elsewhere on this forum, but I'll say it again. I think the schools are now more lenient toward retakers. That's how they keep the numbers the same. Before, the top schools turned up their noses at kids with multiple scores on their file. Now they don't. You won't see this in the numbers, however.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:05 pm 
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FEE wrote:
I've said this elsewhere on this forum, but I'll say it again. I think the schools are now more lenient toward retakers. That's how they keep the numbers the same. Before, the top schools turned up their noses at kids with multiple scores on their file. Now they don't. You won't see this in the numbers, however.


I've seen you say it once and I'll respond the same way: I think that's total horseshit. Post 2007, schools never discriminated against retakers.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:12 pm 
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http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/ ... tml#retake

Harvard still claims they use the average.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

Here is a link that shows the schools that still average. I don't think they'll be able to do that anymore because of the smaller applicant pools, if they want to keep their medians.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:19 pm 
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FEE wrote:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/the-application-process/jdfaq.html#retake

Harvard still claims they use the average.


Naah, they equivocate. They say that the average is considered, but there's no indication that the average, or the highest (or, I guess technically, the lowest) is given priority.

I think this basically means they do whatever they want, and in a cycle like this, they will probably be more inclined to take the highest score.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Anecdotal. I'm personally seeing just the opposite this cycle. I'm out at two to four schools despite my numbers.


Iowa WL
Arizona WL or Reject
Tulane WL or Reject
Wake Forest WL or Reject


Take it for what it's worth.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Gail wrote:
Anecdotal. I'm personally seeing just the opposite this cycle. I'm out at two to four schools despite my numbers.


Iowa WL
Arizona WL or Reject
Tulane WL or Reject
Wake Forest WL or Reject


Take it for what it's worth.



This seems odd considering you're above both medians for at least Wake and Arizona. There must be something outside the numbers they don't like about you that's holding you back(no offense intended).


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Last edited by Gail on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:17 am 
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Gail wrote:
guinness1547 wrote:
Gail wrote:
Anecdotal. I'm personally seeing just the opposite this cycle. I'm out at two to four schools despite my numbers.


Iowa WL
Arizona WL or Reject
Tulane WL or Reject
Wake Forest WL or Reject


Take it for what it's worth.



This seems odd considering you're above both medians for at least Wake and Arizona. There must be something outside the numbers they don't like about you that's holding you back(no offense intended).


Yup. That's what I'm guessing. Although I am kind of just guessing about this. I haven't gotten word back from Wake, Tulane, or Arizona. Although Arizona might as well have just told me to f off from what I can tell by their status checker (decision letter sent, requirements not changed, despite changing for many others).

Wake and Tulane have just completely ignored me. Still at complete for Tulane. Since 11/9. It's been fun begging just to go under review.


My C&F is bad, although it is all traffic and nothing to do with alcohol. My undergrad is TTT. I've accomplished relatively nothing. Maybe my PS sucked, but I thought it was well written and explained why I wanted to be a lawyer well enough. I don't know.

I have two numbers, a GPA and an LSAT, I was hoping that would be all they looked at. Guess the stench of mediocrity overpowered them.

Maybe my LORs were bad, although I'm close to both professors.



You should send a LOCI to the schools that put you on WL. I'm pretty sure you will get off the WL later in the cycle.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:30 pm 
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FEE wrote:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/the-application-process/jdfaq.html#retake

Harvard still claims they use the average.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

Here is a link that shows the schools that still average. I don't think they'll be able to do that anymore because of the smaller applicant pools, if they want to keep their medians.

Somehow I think Harvard will be okay given the quality of applicants they've rejected in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Gail wrote:
Wake and Tulane have just completely ignored me. Still at complete for Tulane. Since 11/9. It's been fun begging just to go under review.

My C&F is bad, although it is all traffic and nothing to do with alcohol. My undergrad is TTT. I've accomplished relatively nothing. Maybe my PS sucked, but I thought it was well written and explained why I wanted to be a lawyer well enough. I don't know.

I have two numbers, a GPA and an LSAT, I was hoping that would be all they looked at. Guess the stench of mediocrity overpowered them.

Maybe my LORs were bad, although I'm close to both professors.

Still early in the cycle, not time to freak out.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Some more statistics for those of you who are interested:
Nationally, "as of Nov. 25, applicants to law school were down 16.3 percent," said Wendy Margolis, director of communications for LSAC. "Last year at that time, roughly 25 percent of the applicant count was in."

Applications to the University of Chicago Law School are down 6.96 percent so far this year, said Ann Killian Perry, assistant dean for admissions.

"I believe we're down about half of what the rest of the schools are," said the dean of the University of Chicago Law School, Michael H. Schill.
Source:
http://www.chicagolawbulletin.com/News- ... 32011.aspx

Cornelius wrote:
Somehow I think Harvard will be okay given the quality of applicants they've rejected in the past.

I think Harvard won't have any trouble maintaining medians, but they might have a harder time maintaining the 75th percentiles without sacrificing the 25th percentiles.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Gail wrote:
guinness1547 wrote:
Gail wrote:
Anecdotal. I'm personally seeing just the opposite this cycle. I'm out at two to four schools despite my numbers.


Iowa WL
Arizona WL or Reject
Tulane WL or Reject
Wake Forest WL or Reject


Take it for what it's worth.



This seems odd considering you're above both medians for at least Wake and Arizona. There must be something outside the numbers they don't like about you that's holding you back(no offense intended).


Yup. That's what I'm guessing. Although I am kind of just guessing about this. I haven't gotten word back from Wake, Tulane, or Arizona. Although Arizona might as well have just told me to f off from what I can tell by their status checker (decision letter sent, requirements not changed, despite changing for many others).

Wake and Tulane have just completely ignored me. Still at complete for Tulane. Since 11/9. It's been fun begging just to go under review.


My C&F is bad, although it is all traffic and nothing to do with alcohol. My undergrad is TTT. I've accomplished relatively nothing. Maybe my PS sucked, but I thought it was well written and explained why I wanted to be a lawyer well enough. I don't know.

I have two numbers, a GPA and an LSAT, I was hoping that would be all they looked at. Guess the stench of mediocrity overpowered them.

Maybe my LORs were bad, although I'm close to both professors.


How bad can the traffic stuff be w/o alcohol being involved? Reckless driving? Road rage? Just a ton of tickets?


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:59 am 
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JasonR wrote:
Gail wrote:
guinness1547 wrote:
Gail wrote:
Anecdotal. I'm personally seeing just the opposite this cycle. I'm out at two to four schools despite my numbers.


Iowa WL
Arizona WL or Reject
Tulane WL or Reject
Wake Forest WL or Reject


Take it for what it's worth.



This seems odd considering you're above both medians for at least Wake and Arizona. There must be something outside the numbers they don't like about you that's holding you back(no offense intended).


Yup. That's what I'm guessing. Although I am kind of just guessing about this. I haven't gotten word back from Wake, Tulane, or Arizona. Although Arizona might as well have just told me to f off from what I can tell by their status checker (decision letter sent, requirements not changed, despite changing for many others).

Wake and Tulane have just completely ignored me. Still at complete for Tulane. Since 11/9. It's been fun begging just to go under review.


My C&F is bad, although it is all traffic and nothing to do with alcohol. My undergrad is TTT. I've accomplished relatively nothing. Maybe my PS sucked, but I thought it was well written and explained why I wanted to be a lawyer well enough. I don't know.

I have two numbers, a GPA and an LSAT, I was hoping that would be all they looked at. Guess the stench of mediocrity overpowered them.

Maybe my LORs were bad, although I'm close to both professors.


How bad can the traffic stuff be w/o alcohol being involved? Reckless driving? Road rage? Just a ton of tickets?


There are plenty of traffic related violations/crimes not involving alcohol that don't fit into the minor traffic offense category which can result in a misdemeanor or felony conviction.

Law schools don't care about or require you to disclose things regarding a couple of speeding tickets or citations for not stopping completely at a stop sign or before making a right turn, fix it tickets, or other things on that level.

Since it appears to be traffic offenses (s)he is required to disclose in applications for C&F purposes, they have to be more serious than typical tickets/infractions you can clear up easily by just paying a fine and/or going to traffic school.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Jeffort wrote:
There are plenty of traffic related violations/crimes not involving alcohol that don't fit into the minor traffic offense category which can result in a misdemeanor or felony conviction.

Law schools don't care about or require you to disclose things regarding a couple of speeding tickets or citations for not stopping completely at a stop sign or before making a right turn, fix it tickets, or other things on that level.

Since it appears to be traffic offenses (s)he is required to disclose in applications for C&F purposes, they have to be more serious than typical tickets/infractions you can clear up easily by just paying a fine and/or going to traffic school.


Eh. I know people with a pattern of drug and alcohol related arrests who got into t6 schools without autoadmit numbers. Despite the "wisdom" of the collective board, I think in general it is safe to say that a misdemeanor arrest/infraction that does not involve "moral turpitude" (i.e., anything that would pose serious problems for C&F, like stealing, breaking and entering) is not going to affect you at all. 2 could be problematic, but don't necessarily need to be.

3+ is a bit too patterned to ignore, but I have nothing other than conjecture to base this off of. Any felonies will likely be an auto-ding unless you have amazing numbers (like, a 175+ and 3.8+... and only then at a school like USC or GW).


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:31 pm 
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With the applications down this year, do you guys feel that schools have changed their admissions strategy from the last couple of years? Do you think it will be easier to get off waitlists this year?


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Jeffort wrote:
There are plenty of traffic related violations/crimes not involving alcohol that don't fit into the minor traffic offense category which can result in a misdemeanor or felony conviction.

Law schools don't care about or require you to disclose things regarding a couple of speeding tickets or citations for not stopping completely at a stop sign or before making a right turn, fix it tickets, or other things on that level.

Since it appears to be traffic offenses (s)he is required to disclose in applications for C&F purposes, they have to be more serious than typical tickets/infractions you can clear up easily by just paying a fine and/or going to traffic school.


Actually. They aren't. And many applications do require you to disclose everything. I can't think of the schools, but I remember seeing a few where they ask: "Have you ever be convicted for any reason?"


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:18 pm 
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addy11 wrote:
3+ is a bit too patterned to ignore



.


Last edited by Gail on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Gail wrote:
addy11 wrote:
3+ is a bit too patterned to ignore



8 tickets in 5 years of driving. One driving with a suspended license, although I was a minor. It's a pattern of bad driving, but not moral flaw. I'm a bad driver. I know I'm a bad driver. I would tend to drive and lose track of the speed. End up getting pulled over for speeding and I never wore my seatbelt so it would be two tickets at the same time. Every time.

The one driving with a suspended license was not intended to break the law. I'm not a bad person, damnit. I'm a good person. But law schools don't seem to care.


I was speaking about 3+ misdemeanors.

I'll be interested to see how your cycle goes. I'd be surprised if any school really cared that much, even about 8 tickets. Don't lose hope just yet.


Last edited by addy11 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Gail wrote:
addy11 wrote:
3+ is a bit too patterned to ignore



8 tickets in 5 years of driving. One driving with a suspended license, although I was a minor. It's a pattern of bad driving, but not moral flaw. I'm a bad driver. I know I'm a bad driver. I would tend to drive and lose track of the speed. End up getting pulled over for speeding and I never wore my seatbelt so it would be two tickets at the same time. Every time.

The one driving with a suspended license was not intended to break the law. I'm not a bad person, damnit. I'm a good person. But law schools don't seem to care.

I don't think they care about whether you are a 'good person' -- I think it's more along the lines of 'shouldn't he have learned some sort of lesson after getting 4 tickets about the same few things?' If it doesn't seem like you have any regard for the law, despite getting penalized for breaking it multiple times, that might leave a bad taste in the mouths of some adcomms.

But again, it's not a judgement of whether you're good or bad--it's an insight into how much you care about following the law the next time you get behind the wheel.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:59 pm 
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crumpetsandtea wrote:
I don't think they care about whether you are a 'good person' -- I think it's more along the lines of 'shouldn't he have learned some sort of lesson after getting 4 tickets about the same few things?' If it doesn't seem like you have any regard for the law, despite getting penalized for breaking it multiple times, that might leave a bad taste in the mouths of some adcomms.

But again, it's not a judgement of whether you're good or bad--it's an insight into how much you care about following the law the next time you get behind the wheel.


I feel like if current driving laws and enforcement were in place just 20 years ago, a good chunk of lawyers, law school adcomms, and the like would be a little more empathetic.

But whatever. Follow the law. I know. Too bad 18 year old me didn't. That's what I get for being young and stupid. A lifetime of feeling unfulfilled.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Gail wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
I don't think they care about whether you are a 'good person' -- I think it's more along the lines of 'shouldn't he have learned some sort of lesson after getting 4 tickets about the same few things?' If it doesn't seem like you have any regard for the law, despite getting penalized for breaking it multiple times, that might leave a bad taste in the mouths of some adcomms.

But again, it's not a judgement of whether you're good or bad--it's an insight into how much you care about following the law the next time you get behind the wheel.


I feel like if current driving laws and enforcement were in place just 20 years ago, a good chunk of lawyers, law school adcomms, and the like would be a little more empathetic.

But whatever. Follow the law. I know. Too bad 18 year old me didn't. That's what I get for being young and stupid. A lifetime of feeling unfulfilled.


Not trying to be a dick but it could be more than just the tickets. Did you write about steps you've taken to fix the problems Ie learn from them? Also how's your personal statement? Admissions are a black box so not sure what is going on; but I wish you luck.


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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Last edited by Gail on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16.9% Drop in October Test Takers (December fell ~14%)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Gail wrote:
tooswolle wrote:
Not trying to be a dick but it could be more than just the tickets. Did you write about steps you've taken to fix the problems Ie learn from them? Also how's your personal statement? Admissions are a black box so not sure what is going on; but I wish you luck.


Yes. Traffic courses, remedial courses, and a clean driving record ever since.


I don't know if my personal statement is good or bad. I thought it was good. It might suck though. I worked on it a lot, had it proofread a lot, and was very specific about why I want to be a lawyer. Same thing for LORs. They might be good. They might be bad. I don't know frankly. I'm close with the professors, but who knows what they said? I'll probably do it all over again next year or the year after that. So at least I learned a lot about what not to do with this cycle. Idk though. Something doesn't feel right.



Hmm how far are you away from the incidents? If its not that long then idk. I can tell you that a good personal statement makes a difference. Last year I got wait listed everywhere. During that time I got promoted and wrote a better personal statement. Things have gone well so far so dont loose hope.

With that being said I think the decrease in applications and students taking the test will benefit students in the long run. Admissions will revert to pre boom levels and hopefully there will be less lawyers to compete with.


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