I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

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180asBreath
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I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:55 pm

I was arrogant to think that I had "mastered" LR because I had missed a total of 13 on my last 6 LR sections in PT's; I was a fool and I apologize.

I have all LR by type from Cambridge LSAT and I have the Velocity LR book.

If you were me, how would you master LR in the next 7.5 weeks?
Last edited by 180asBreath on Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:01 pm

LOOOL.

Powerscore Bible for LR helped me a lot. And DRILL (Cambridge LR by type should help with that)

kaiser
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby kaiser » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:02 pm

I think the best way is to just plug in the little gaps in your knowledge. Be somewhat of a detective and see what you can uncover. Here are some Q's to ask yourself that can help you figure out a way to change things in and milk every last point out of LR:

1. Are the questions you are getting wrong all of the same type? Are they of similar type? Or are they all over the place?
2. Are the wrong Q's all toward the end of sections? Or are they silly mistakes on relatively easy ones?
3. Are they questions when you were able to narrow it down to 2 answers, or were they more general guesses?
4. Did they happen to fall immediately AFTER questions that gave you trouble (since people tend to think about the previous question when they agonize over it, and they often fail to put it out of their minds when they go onto the next one, and often end up getting the next one wrong as a result)
5. Is there any trend in the types of answer CHOICES you selected in these wrong Q's?

These questions are but a starting point for figuring out what the problem is so that you can best address it

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:09 pm

I just got a -11 (after never having gotten worse than a -6) on an LR; while I was a bit distracted (someone was calling me during the section, and I only took a 5 min break after the first 3 sections - and before the LR, which was 4th), I was not prephrasing - I was looking through answer choices. If I had to guess, that was my biggest problem.

I felt hopeless, like I wasn't certain about any one answer.

I have learned two things:

1. NEVER FORGET TO PREPHRASE (I cover up RC AC's to prevent against this, now I'll go it with LR)
2. Cross out why each one is wrong (not only X out the AC, but strike the word or phrase in the AC that makes it wrong)

But, moving forward, I have to drill.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:17 pm

180asBreath wrote:I just got a -11 (after never having gotten worse than a -6) on an LR; while I was a bit distracted (someone was calling me during the section, and I only took a 5 min break after the first 3 sections - and before the LR, which was 4th), I was not prephrasing - I was looking through answer choices. If I had to guess, that was my biggest problem.

I felt hopeless, like I wasn't certain about any one answer.

I have learned two things:

1. NEVER FORGET TO PREPHRASE (I cover up RC AC's to prevent against this, now I'll go it with LR)
2. Cross out why each one is wrong (not only X out the AC, but strike the word or phrase in the AC that makes it wrong)

But, moving forward, I have to drill.

Okay, dude, STOP DOING PTs. Stop doing sections at all. Do questions, focus on what you got wrong, why you got them wrong, why the right answer is correct, how the test tricked you. If possible, make a document and write all this down, for example:

PT98 Q54
Stimulus: Parallel reasoning (write out stim)
TCR: A (write out AC)
My AC: E (write out AC)

Why is TCR correct: The stimulus presents an incorrect reversal, and only AC 'A' displays an incorrect reversal

Why is my answer wrong: Even though 'E' looks like the stimulus in terms of structure/wording/subject matter, it's actually a good argument

What trick does the LSAC use to make the other answers seem right: By using the same structure/wording/subject matter as the stimulus, AC 'E' tricks people into thinking it's parallel because it reads in a familiar way.

How can I come up with a specific strategy to NOT get tricked again: Good/Bad test. Test the stimulus to see if it is a good argument or bad one (and WHY it is bad). then test each AC to see if it is good/bad, and what logical reasoning flaw is specifically wrong in that AC.


Do that with every question you get wrong and at the end of each day, look at what you wrote down and re-assess/go over the write ups. Hopefully you should see some trends and be able to attack them.

josh43299
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby josh43299 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:59 pm

180asBreath wrote:I was arrogant to think that I had "mastered" LR because I had missed a total of 13 on my last 6 LR sections in PT's; I was a fool and I apologize.

I have all LR by type from Cambridge LSAT and I have the Velocity LR book.

If you were me, how would you master LR in the next 7.5 weeks?


Be careful not to get burned out at this stage in your prep. You may need to take a couple of days off. When I had a catastrophic section like that, it was usually because I needed to get some sleep and take better care of myself. Definitely take it easy on the PTs, as was suggested, if you are primarily doing PTs in your studying.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 pm

+1 to taking a day off to get away.

Since most LR stimuli are bad arguments, look for the flaw.

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EarlCat
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby EarlCat » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:39 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:Okay, dude, STOP DOING PTs. Stop doing sections at all. Do questions, focus on what you got wrong, why you got them wrong, why the right answer is correct, how the test tricked you. If possible, make a document and write all this down

^This.

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suspicious android
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby suspicious android » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:31 am

Instead of asking for new advice, why not just take the advice you previously ignored?

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glucose101
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby glucose101 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:26 am

suspicious android wrote:Instead of asking for new advice, why not just take the advice you previously ignored?


+111111

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:11 am

suspicious android wrote:Instead of asking for new advice, why not just take the advice you previously ignored?


I was actually hoping for more meaningful advice (like from crumpets and tea), instead of being told "stop doing PT's and learn the questions".

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lsatprepguy
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby lsatprepguy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:13 am

I used the powerscore book for lr and found that it did help, but like anything else on the LSAT, most of my gains came from drilling. As one of the above posters said, write out explanations and analyze the heck out of all the questions you got wrong AND questions that you got right but were questionable on.


Also, everytime I say this next part somewhere I get attacked and told that is the worst advice ever, so keep that in mind:

When I took my LR sections, almost everything was internalized and informal. I never wrote anything out, except in rare circumstances with conditionals. I looked at the answer choices after reading the stimulus, and I almost IMMEDIATELY knew which answer I was going to choose after closer analysis.

I attribute this to pattern recognition. You will get a sense of what answers are even reasonable and which ones you can immediately get rid of. The most difficult part about this is that there really is no magic formula to recognizing these patterns. I can't and will not even try to explain it. It is just a "sense" that you get from doing them.

How long did it take to develop this "sense?"
I took pts 7-36 , and it clicked somewhere around 37. From 40-62, I missed more than 2 questions on a single lr no more than three times, usually getting -1 or -0.
But, as other posters have said, I'm not urging you to continue taking pts. It took me a long time to get to the above "ahah moment" and I am not sre you have enough time to take the same approach I did.

Good luck
Last edited by lsatprepguy on Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SilverE2
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby SilverE2 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:27 am

I regularly got -0 to -1 on both LR sections on practice tests and got -2 across both sections on the real thing. The best advice I can give is repetition. I did every LR section from every practice test twice, and honestly by the end of it all I almost knew the right answer intuitively. I can't explain it, but I'm sure other people have experienced the same thing, after you've done enough LR problems they almost become second nature. I think there's only so many ways they can reformulate questions, and after you've seen them enough times your brain picks up on patterns in the way questions are written.

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lsatprepguy
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby lsatprepguy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:29 am

SilverE2 wrote:I regularly got -0 to -1 on both LR sections on practice tests and got -2 across both sections on the real thing. The best advice I can give is repetition. I did every LR section from every practice test twice, and honestly by the end of it all I almost knew the right answer intuitively. I can't explain it, but I'm sure other people have experienced the same thing, after you've done enough LR problems they almost become second nature. I think there's only so many ways they can reformulate questions, and after you've seen them enough times your brain picks up on patterns in the way questions are written.

So maybe what I said wast so bad after all lol

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:32 am

SilverE2 wrote:I regularly got -0 to -1 on both LR sections on practice tests and got -2 across both sections on the real thing. The best advice I can give is repetition. I did every LR section from every practice test twice, and honestly by the end of it all I almost knew the right answer intuitively. I can't explain it, but I'm sure other people have experienced the same thing, after you've done enough LR problems they almost become second nature. I think there's only so many ways they can reformulate questions, and after you've seen them enough times your brain picks up on patterns in the way questions are written.


This is what I felt for those 6 sections; it was just like the 4 incorrect AC's were blurry and the 1 correct AC was clear.

However, I think an intuitive sense is more subjected to variance - as any time that your sense is on the fritz, you're screwed.

I've tried to reflect on why I bombed and I truly think that I wasn't prephrasing, which couldn't be a bigger disaster.

thederangedwang
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:42 pm

if my memory serves me well, arent u the guy who a few months ago posted something about how you will get a 180 and then proceeded to list out 20 reasons why?

i will get a 180 because

i practice 4 hours a day
i go into the pts with a game plan
...etc

i just thought that whole post was a bit....over the top...anyways, to say that you have mastered anything while still missing around 2 per section is not mastery....mising 2 lr per section (4 wrong total) is already enough to smash any realistic shot at a 180 save for a ridiculous curve

anyways, i think ur problem is that u disregard advice u dont agree with...and some of that advice is really really good.

stop doing pt's....go back and drill the basics and review why u got those questions wrong.....and please be open about advice and realistic about ur goals...unless u r consistentlu scoring 176,177+ on pt's, 180 is just setting u up for failure and u might end up taking chances (chances u might not have taken if u werent trying to reach a 180) that would actually drop ur score


bottom line, there is nothing wrong with a 175 (god, i cant believe i just said that) or a display name that says 175asbreath

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:12 am

1. No, that was not me.
2. I believe I have always used quotes around the term master/mastery, but I could be wrong. At any rate, Mastery =/= Perfection.
3. So, the only advice I disregard is "don't take any more PT's". I've explained numerous times why I do; it's mainly because I have not received one legitimate reason why I should, save maybe one - and that one did not outweigh the benefit I get from taking them.
4. Again, please show me where I am not open to advice.
5. As for goal-setting, I've said on different threads that I would be well-pleased with even a 170; if I had a 175+ average on my last 10 PT's and I got a 170, I may be a little bummed - but all I really need is a 170. Anything over that would be a tremendous blessing.

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suspicious android
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby suspicious android » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:06 am

180asBreath wrote:4. Again, please show me where I am not open to advice.


lol

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:37 am

suspicious android wrote:
180asBreath wrote:4. Again, please show me where I am not open to advice.

lol


Yeah, my unwillingness to blindly accept unjustified, fairweather advice - that is new to TLS 2011 - clearly shows that I am not open to advice; my bad.

Edit: Wrong acronym. That must be why you were talking about LSN; I didn't understand what that had to do with the thread, until now.
Last edited by 180asBreath on Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeffort
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby Jeffort » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:03 am

180asBreath wrote:
suspicious android wrote:
180asBreath wrote:4. Again, please show me where I am not open to advice.

lol


Yeah, my unwillingness to blindly accept unjustified, fairweather advice - that is new to LSN 2011 - clearly shows that I am not open to advice; my bad.


Wow. Several experts with experience teaching LSAT prep have given you sound advice in this thread and you got hostile towards them. WTF ???

Just so you know, LSN is self reported, unverified data. Anybody can make an account and put whatever numbers and claims they want into the profile. It is far more statistically unreliable than the official law school admission data published by US News and other 'official' admissions data sources that make charts and graphs from the information disclosed by law schools. FYI, people that have a bad cycle/did crappy on the LSAT/didn't get accepted to any prestigious law schools generally don't take the time to input those facts into the LSN database for public broadcast.

PS: Turn off your phone when you are studying so you focus solely on the material in front of you and please drop the attitude. With the number of LR questions you said you have been missing, you have a long way to go to be able to break 170, let alone hit 180 on test day. Once you have achieved an official 99th percentile LSAT score you can be as arrogant as you want and people will tolerate it.

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:17 am

We must have different definitions of the word "hostile". Further, I feel a snarky response is appropriate when someone scoffs at me.

Yeah, on Saturdays, I always leave my phone in the car; since it was a Wednesday and I had class all day, I forgot to turn off the ringer.

You tell me to drop my attitude and then you give me some, right after it? With the number of LR questions I've been missing? When I've been able to actually answer all of the questions (the last few tests), I have had combined scores of -3 to -5. That puts me a "long way to go" from being able to break 170? If I wouldn't have completely bombed the last LR, I would have been in the mid 170's; with the one before it, I did a -12 on the PT (which is a 170 on most tests) even though I had a -9 on RC.

This is all about my desire to continue taking PT's. Tiago understands and thinks it's fine, so long as I do the appropriate drilling. That's pretty much good enough for me; so many people will just continue to say the same thing, while completely ignoring my specific case. I have explained why I feel PT's are crucial to my prep, and he was the only one who understood. I'm not in this to gain everyone's approval and if some people want to get offended because I won't agree with their advice, especially when they are unable to give proper cause, then so be it.

As for the arrogance, people shouldn't even tolerate it when someone has a 180. No one has a right to be a douche, regardless of their accomplishments.

My OP was a bit of a dramatic title, but it is true that I was getting arrogant about LR - not placing enough importance on drilling. There has been some really good advice in this thread, and I am much appreciative; but when someone just says, "Stop doing PT's, derpity derp derp", it's going to fall on deaf ears.

thederangedwang
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby thederangedwang » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:03 am

Mastery does not equal perfection, but if u do miss 2 per section on LR, then there are clearly concepts and question types which you struggle with.

As I said before, missing 2 per section on LR (which, I assume from your attitude here, is your best section) will already drop u down to a 175+ score, and thats not even including game day pressure.

What all of us are trying to say, and get through to you is, just practicing at this point will not help you improve because right now you are practicing incomplete techniques. There are clearly concepts and issues and question types that you still havent grasped completely yet and thus, it may be more beneficial for you to go back and review such things and thus, fill in the holes. Then you can practice these things all you want. Right now, you seem to be circling the problem since the problem isnt that you havent practice enough, rather, your practice isnt comprehensive enough so when you get to a certain question type, you are going to miss it regardless of your practice level.

Think of it this way. You are building a road and every pt you take makes the road a bit longer. Right now you have a really long road, but a long road doesnt mean its going to be a smooth ride. Focus on filling in the potholes and defects in the road before you make it longer. Quality not quantity. Unless you want to be Stalin...lol, bad pun there.

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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby thederangedwang » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:32 am

180asBreath wrote:1. No, that was not me.
2. I believe I have always used quotes around the term master/mastery, but I could be wrong. At any rate, Mastery =/= Perfection.
3. So, the only advice I disregard is "don't take any more PT's". I've explained numerous times why I do; it's mainly because I have not received one legitimate reason why I should, save maybe one - and that one did not outweigh the benefit I get from taking them.
4. Again, please show me where I am not open to advice.
5. As for goal-setting, I've said on different threads that I would be well-pleased with even a 170; if I had a 175+ average on my last 10 PT's and I got a 170, I may be a little bummed - but all I really need is a 170. Anything over that would be a tremendous blessing.


i screwed up a bit in memory but it was you, this was the topic i was talking about
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=166593

going through, i couldnt help but notice the vast majority of responders urging you to stop doing pt's so that you can focus on fundamentals, much like i have urged u to do

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180asBreath
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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby 180asBreath » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:38 pm

"if my memory serves me well, arent u the guy who a few months ago posted something about how you will get a 180 and then proceeded to list out 20 reasons why?"

This is wholly inaccurate.

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Re: I apologize for my arrogance, please help with LR

Postby bjsesq » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:43 pm

180asBreath wrote:We must have different definitions of the word "hostile". Further, I feel a snarky response is appropriate when someone scoffs at me.

Yeah, on Saturdays, I always leave my phone in the car; since it was a Wednesday and I had class all day, I forgot to turn off the ringer.

You tell me to drop my attitude and then you give me some, right after it? With the number of LR questions I've been missing? When I've been able to actually answer all of the questions (the last few tests), I have had combined scores of -3 to -5. That puts me a "long way to go" from being able to break 170? If I wouldn't have completely bombed the last LR, I would have been in the mid 170's; with the one before it, I did a -12 on the PT (which is a 170 on most tests) even though I had a -9 on RC.

This is all about my desire to continue taking PT's. Tiago understands and thinks it's fine, so long as I do the appropriate drilling. That's pretty much good enough for me; so many people will just continue to say the same thing, while completely ignoring my specific case. I have explained why I feel PT's are crucial to my prep, and he was the only one who understood. I'm not in this to gain everyone's approval and if some people want to get offended because I won't agree with their advice, especially when they are unable to give proper cause, then so be it.

As for the arrogance, people shouldn't even tolerate it when someone has a 180. No one has a right to be a douche, regardless of their accomplishments.

My OP was a bit of a dramatic title, but it is true that I was getting arrogant about LR - not placing enough importance on drilling. There has been some really good advice in this thread, and I am much appreciative; but when someone just says, "Stop doing PT's, derpity derp derp", it's going to fall on deaf ears.


A fellow UG'er looking out for another here: when people give you advice, even advice you consider snarky, it's best to shut up. What ends up happening is your thread transforms into a flame fest and you are worse off because not only did you not get your question answered, but people who might have helped you think you're a douche.

TL;DR: chill out and move on.




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