LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

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LSAT Blog
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby LSAT Blog » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:58 pm

thelong wrote:In response to the OP:

My proctors called time five minutes early on the first section. I sent a written complaint to LSAC once I got home. Their response was that they would put my file on hold while they investigated the issue and would send me a written response (no timeframe stated) at which time I would have the option of canceling if I so chose.

I'll let you know how this pans out once I hear back.


That seems to be what they do in the event of "irregularities" should they find validity to the complaints. Not really sure what alternative they can reasonably offer. It's not as if they're going to add 5 points to your score.

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thelong
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby thelong » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:02 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
thelong wrote:In response to the OP:

My proctors called time five minutes early on the first section. I sent a written complaint to LSAC once I got home. Their response was that they would put my file on hold while they investigated the issue and would send me a written response (no timeframe stated) at which time I would have the option of canceling if I so chose.

I'll let you know how this pans out once I hear back.


That seems to be what they do in the event of "irregularities" should they find validity to the complaints. Not really sure what alternative they can reasonably offer. It's not as if they're going to add 5 points to your score.


Not that I would mind :)

No, really, I expect them to say that there really isn't anything they can do to substantiate it and offer me the option to cancel.

bigdawg6
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby bigdawg6 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:24 pm

Thanks for the responses guys. To the person who said that your friend was at NCCU, I just hope that she lucked out like me and had an experimental third section! I really consider myself lucky all things considered.

It seems like the best thing to do is to e-mail LSAC and explain that I feel that for me the situation was a disadvantage and offered no possible unfair advantages. Hopefully they will not invalidate my test. I was told that if I am lucky, I could get an asterisk next to my score.

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Canarsie
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Canarsie » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:41 pm

Regarding the photo thing - I spoke to LSAC before the test and they said that it did NOT have to be on a white background nor did it have to be a passport photo. Just photo quality, recent, and the correct size. That proctor was out of line.

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Jeffort
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Jeffort » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:53 pm

cynthia rose wrote:So we're going to completely ignore the fact that I just pointed out that background color/being a passport photo isn't mentioned anywhere in LSAC's rules whether you look at the pictures or not (and the proctor was trying to dismiss people on these two things). Okay.


No, certainly not.

cynthia rose wrote:
a) When you do click that link on LSAC's page there is an unacceptable picture marked "Background Not Plain" because the person is standing in front of some sort of painting or picture. But there is not one unacceptable picture that mentions not having a white or neutral colored background or not being a "passport" photo.

b) And I also agree that the page with the examples of what is an appropriate/inappropriate photo isn't necessarily easy to find. I stumbled on it completely by accident myself, only because it was mentioned in the LSAC reminder alert they emailed to me three times in the two days before the test. I almost didn't bother to click it because they had just stated in plain, easily understandable language what they require - and the phrases "passport" and "white or neutral colored background" aren't anywhere in the instructions. So no, it's actually NOT stipulated in the rules nor is it illustrated with pictures. That proctor was overreaching.



a) Your argument fails on vocabulary grounds. In the context of a photograph plain background means nothing in the background. Notice the example unacceptable photo that has a shadow in the background. Sure, the requirement could also be phrased as requiring a neutral background, an unadorned background, a background without hue, etc.

A few relevant definitions of 'plain':

Not mixed with other substances; pure
Not pretentious; unaffected.
Marked by little or no ornamentation or decoration.
Not dyed, twilled, or patterned.

A problem we run into with your vocabulary objection relates to the complaint from anthony55 about the volume of the 'day of the test' rules text that students are supposed to read and follow. If LSAC were to unequivocally state the photo requirement rule in every possible way it can be phrased in English using all available adjectives, it would add another page or two to the 'day of test' rules text and people would complain about its length.

Instead of doing that they went with a simple kindergarten understanding level collage of example photographs along with the text.

b) I agree that the link to the photograph examples page isn't well placed or in an attention getting CLICK HERE NOW!!! fashion. However, as you stated, to make sure everybody registered for the test knew ahead of time about the requirement, LSAC sent out a reminder email THREE times. There is only so much mollycoddling LSAC can do. It appears to me that they are practically bending over backwards to create a smooth as possible and fair test environment for everyone.

However, as I stated above, you guys are adults now and trying to get into graduate school to become lawyers. I hope that most test takers capable of achieving a respectable LSAT score have transitioned out of the teenage phase of thinking they know everything, but I am frequently disappointed. Grow up already people, you are just at the beginning of learning the realities of the mechanisms that govern society.

milan
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby milan » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:17 pm

All hail Jeffort, he who knows all about the "mechanisms that govern society." Thank you for bestowing your wisdom upon us......you're a douchebag

Bottom line, the proctor cannot deny someone entrance on the grounds that the photo must be a passport photo. Say whatever you want about the definition of plain; it does not change the fact that this proctor explicitly said that it must be a passport photo with a white background. That is wrong.

anthony55
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby anthony55 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:56 pm

Jeffort wrote:Jeffo
Jeffort wrote:
anthony55 wrote:
Jeffort wrote:
anthony55 wrote:...Though my friend's photo was clear and showed her face, the background was not white or neutral colored...


What's worse, is after my friend read the proctor the rules from the LSAC instructions, the proctor continued to censure students for not attaching "passport photos", even expelling some students from the testing center (ones who didn't fight back like my friend).

...but to throw kids out of the test because of the background color in their photo, when that isn't even stipulated in the rules, seems absurd.


Uhmm, it is stipulated in the rules and even illustrated with pictures so you don't have to read a lot of text.

http://www.lsac.org/JD/LSAT/photo-requirements.asp

The only thing missing from the day of test instructions http://www.lsac.org/JD/LSAT/day-of-test.asp is text that says something like 'passport type photograph'.

My guess is that for now LSAC probably decided not to include such text because, in order to make it EASY for test takers (god forbid!), they currently allow pictures printed on non-photo quality paper (on normal printer paper is OK, even in black and white is OK in case you don't have access to a color printer) so that you can do it on the cheap yourself at home, whereas passport photos have to be 2 X 2 on photo paper (for the LSAT it can be anywhere from 1 X 1 inches to 2 X 2 inches).

Grow up, stop whining and stop trying to blame others for mistakes students make because they didn't read-up and properly prepare. You are trying to get into law school to become a lawyer and enter the real world. Please act like an adult and realize that the law is all about rules and following/applying/enforcing them. It's not like high school or undergrad where rules and regulations are frequently treated merely as suggestions.

.


That would be fine -- my friend even said, I would be okay with this "rule" if it was actually IN the rules -- except that in all of the text, including in the (long) instructions/rules that LSAC sends you with your admission ticket which you print out and read, it stipulates nothing about the background color of your photo. Just about the size, clarity, etc. Without digging around on the LSAC website, one would not find that page with all of those sample photos of what's right/wrong. If they want test takers to only attach photos with white/neutral backgrounds, they should add that to the section of test day instructions under "photo requirement" that they send to each test taker.


If you attend law school you are really going to hate the legal research class and everything thereafter starting first semester of being a 1L. You may even end up trying to sue somebody in order to ban footnotes as well as staging a 'burn the blue books' protest. Of course, if you do those things you will promptly be laughed at and escorted away.

You should do some research about what 'a day in the life' of being in law school entails as well as about what lawyers spend most of their working time doing. Hint, it's not anywhere close to how it is depicted on TV shows like Suits, Law and Order, Harry's Law, CSI, etc. The really old show Paper Chase was properly titled.

If you are frustrated by reading and sorting through the few pages of LSAC instructions/rules, just for drill give this a read to get a taste of the type of material you will be spending all waking hours reading and sorting through while in law school: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-10245.pdf

.


Honey, do you need to get laid? You're being a bit condescending for no reason at all!

Maybe you weren't quite understanding. No one is "frustrated by reading and sorting through the few pages of LSAC instructions", but thanks for your tirade about how poor others will do in law school and how unrealistic others' opinions are of the legal profession! You might have been grasping at just a few too many straws there, but do you at least feel better about yourself?

If you didn't see, it has been mentioned here that any "rules" governing the appropriate background color of a photo (or whether it needs to be a "passport photo") is not stipulated anywhere in the (very long) instruction/rules sheet that LSAC provides with the admission ticket. As another poster attested to, that website with all of the acceptable/unacceptable photo examples is not very easily accessible, and that information is not provided anywhere (whether in picture OR text form) on the rules sheet that LSAC sends each test taker. Rather than assuming someone is going to peruse the LSAC website for more information, don't ya think LSAC should list in their long-ass instruction sheet the rules governing the background color of a photo, if they're so important that defying them could result in dismissal?

It's not the difficulty of "reading" rules that you so pompously accused people of failing to do, but rather the expectation that test takers browse through the LSAC website in order to gather what is appropriate and what is not for the test day requirements, especially when a very thorough instruction sheet is already sent to each test taker.

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tedler
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby tedler » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:22 pm

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Last edited by tedler on Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeffort
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Jeffort » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:02 am

anthony55 wrote:
Honey, do you need to get laid? You're being a bit condescending for no reason at all!

Maybe you weren't quite understanding. No one is "frustrated by reading and sorting through the few pages of LSAC instructions", but thanks for your tirade about how poor others will do in law school and how unrealistic others' opinions are of the legal profession! You might have been grasping at just a few too many straws there, but do you at least feel better about yourself?

If you didn't see, it has been mentioned here that any "rules" governing the appropriate background color of a photo (or whether it needs to be a "passport photo") is not stipulated anywhere in the (very long) instruction/rules sheet that LSAC provides with the admission ticket. As another poster attested to, that website with all of the acceptable/unacceptable photo examples is not very easily accessible, and that information is not provided anywhere (whether in picture OR text form) on the rules sheet that LSAC sends each test taker. Rather than assuming someone is going to peruse the LSAC website for more information, don't ya think LSAC should list in their long-ass instruction sheet the rules governing the background color of a photo, if they're so important that defying them could result in dismissal?

It's not the difficulty of "reading" rules that you so pompously accused people of failing to do, but rather the expectation that test takers browse through the LSAC website in order to gather what is appropriate and what is not for the test day requirements, especially when a very thorough instruction sheet is already sent to each test taker.


Anthony, there is no need to resort to immature snipes and distortions/flawed interpretations of what I actually said. This topic is about the identification photo requirement to check into the test center in order to take the LSAT and also about the proctors.

I did not say anything about how people will do in law school or anything related to the perceptions people have of the legal profession, nor did I go on a 'tirade'. You made that stuff up/pulled it out of thin air. Did you confuse this thread with another one you are arguing/complaining in?

I did say that IF you are frustrated by, as you described it, having to dig around to find the photo examples page (BTW, it's three mouse clicks from the LSAC homepage and is easily accessible) or about having to read several pages of 'day of test' instructions, that you will hate legal research class as well as the reading/research/studying necessary to do well in law school. You seem to be complaining about the rules since your friend almost got turned away because she didn't bring an acceptable photo.

You can parse the words, scream about how unfair or vague the rules are and claim that the proctors are 'power-hungry' all you want, but you are wrong. It really is just a bunch of whiny nonsense from people that didn't prepare properly ahead of time. I'll bet that most of the people at the test center had acceptable photos, checked in and were allowed into the test room without incident and without making a scene by yelling at a proctor trying to make a federal case out of it. I think I see some of the logic going on in this situation, now your friend has a great excuse to explain away a substandard test day score and/or a reason to cancel that she can tell to family and friends.

I wasn't trying to be condescending before, but now I am. If a person does not show up with the basics put together (it's really simple stuff) in order to be admitted into the test room to take the test, they deserve to be turned away and sent home. I have zero sympathy for people that intentionally or negligently blow off the regulations and show up expecting to be granted a courtesy exception. People of that sort that also get hostile with the proctors when denied a courtesy exception to the rules rank below the unprepared people I have no sympathy for.

Hopefully to settle this dispute about the photo requirement, here is more LSAC day of the test text:

"In addition, all candidates must attach to their ticket a recent photograph (taken within the last six months) showing only the face and shoulders."

Notice the word ONLY.


.
Last edited by Jeffort on Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tehrocstar
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby tehrocstar » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:08 am

Jeffort wrote:
anthony55 wrote:...Though my friend's photo was clear and showed her face, the background was not white or neutral colored...


What's worse, is after my friend read the proctor the rules from the LSAC instructions, the proctor continued to censure students for not attaching "passport photos", even expelling some students from the testing center (ones who didn't fight back like my friend).

...but to throw kids out of the test because of the background color in their photo, when that isn't even stipulated in the rules, seems absurd.


Uhmm, it is stipulated in the rules and even illustrated with pictures so you don't have to read a lot of text.

http://www.lsac.org/JD/LSAT/photo-requirements.asp

The only thing missing from the day of test instructions http://www.lsac.org/JD/LSAT/day-of-test.asp is text that says something like 'passport type photograph'.

My guess is that for now LSAC probably decided not to include such text because, in order to make it EASY for test takers (god forbid!), they currently allow pictures printed on non-photo quality paper (on normal printer paper is OK, even in black and white is OK in case you don't have access to a color printer) so that you can do it on the cheap yourself at home, whereas passport photos have to be 2 X 2 on photo paper (for the LSAT it can be anywhere from 1 X 1 inches to 2 X 2 inches).

Grow up, stop whining and stop trying to blame others for mistakes students make because they didn't read-up and properly prepare. You are trying to get into law school to become a lawyer and enter the real world. Please act like an adult and realize that the law is all about rules and following/applying/enforcing them. It's not like high school or undergrad where rules and regulations are frequently treated merely as suggestions.

.


Some of those examples are hilarious. Like the multiple people one.

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Tom Joad
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:32 am

No doubt Jeffort trolled you all. Nobody on the internet is that mad to spend hours typing about LSAT photos.

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Jeffort
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Jeffort » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:59 am

Tom Joad wrote:No doubt Jeffort trolled you all. Nobody on the internet is that mad to spend hours typing about LSAT photos.


I wake up early. You get the best unvarnished news early in the morning before the pundits/talking heads have had a chance to figure out the spin they are going to put on it when they show their faces in the afternoon/evening to 'report' and talk about world events on the cable news channels.

anthony55
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby anthony55 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:01 pm

If I cared enough I would read "Jeffort's" long and undoubtedly snippy reply to my snippy counter to his original snippy comment. But I don't -- I was merely sharing the honest opinion of a friend and undoubtedly many others. I happen to think it's silly that proctors would enforce a rule that is not explicitly mentioned on the LSAC instruction sheet send to each test taker, but if you disagree for whatever reason, that's fine. Regardless, there are undoubtedly some power-hungry proctors out there who abuse their privileges.

To conclude, a quote from Colleen Haskell to you all:

"Be nice. Play fair."


And I'm gone like the wind.

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Jeffort
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby Jeffort » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:26 pm

anthony55 wrote:If I cared enough I would read "Jeffort's" long and undoubtedly snippy reply to my snippy counter to his original snippy comment. But I don't -- I was merely sharing the honest opinion of a friend and undoubtedly many others. I happen to think it's silly that proctors would enforce a rule that is not explicitly mentioned on the LSAC instruction sheet send to each test taker, but if you disagree for whatever reason, that's fine. Regardless, there are undoubtedly some power-hungry proctors out there who abuse their privileges.

To conclude, a quote from Colleen Haskell to you all:

"Be nice. Play fair."


And I'm gone like the wind.


I apologize for my long posts and apologize on behalf of undergrad teachers, law school professors and everyone else in the world that tries to get you to read stuff. I'm really sorry I tried to make you do it. Sorry again for the cruel and unusual punishment!

Anyway, I do like your fighting spirit, so I guess you at least have that going for you. You just need to work on the logic and reasoning part of it. That is apparent because you haven't budged from your original position that you again restated.

So, we going to pick this back up in the morning again?

BobbyFlanders
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby BobbyFlanders » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:18 pm

AAHOAHL:GHL:AWQRFAWHLR :shock: :evil: :x :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I know this is an old post but i don't care. I just took the Lsat in Jackson MS this morning, and the test proctor screwed up twice, and the first screwup was a big one. She shorted us ten minutes on the second section and called "five minutes remaining" twenty minutes in. I was on question 15 or so in the arguments section. Going at a good pace. So i started wildly skimming the passages and marking answers, all the while thinking that I looked at my watch wrong or had gone crazy. Then, on the next section, the third one, she called the five minute mark with TEN minutes remaining, thus screwing me up again.
On the fifteen minute break, all of the test takers started asking questions, and we all felt she had shorted us on the second section, and the proctor had admitted that she had called time to early on the third section. After we determined what had happened, the proctor went by "official LSAC guidelines" and gave us 5 minutes to go back on Section 2 to try and correct answers. WTF???? I was so flustered I ended up erasing answers off the 3rd section and marking my corrections for the second section, then realized it and freaked out and erased and bubbled again and accomplished nothing in our 5 minutes but smearing the answer bubbles on the third section. The rest of the test I did the best I could but was so angry I could hardly concentrate. Now I'm looking at cancelling my score and waiting until February. Might not get my application with a second, hopefully better score, in on time now. All because this incompetent dimwit can't operate a timer.
There's no easy solution to this problem. This was my second time to take the LSAT, but I'll be submitting my application with a measly 149, I'm trying to hit at least a 152-55 to get into the law school I'm looking at. This was the last thing I expected to happen. I'll be calling, emailing, faxing, and mailing LSAC formal complaints and requesting a refund. To make it even better, I'll be working 1600 miles from home in the Utah mountains for the winter season and will have to take the LSAT in Salt Lake City. Hope there won't be a blizzard that closes the mountain roads.

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lakers3peat
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby lakers3peat » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:17 pm

with a 149 you might aswell not apply to law school. sorry dude.

nedzilla
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Re: LSAT Proctor Issue - Advice Needed

Postby nedzilla » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:11 pm

That sucks. glad that didnt happen in my room.

my proctor however did stop me midway through the first section to have me write one of the codes on top of my answer sheet and test booklet. i never heard her say anything about it beforehand in the instructions.

i just couldnt believe she was stopping me in the middle of a section to write some code she could have had me do it after the exam or during the break... i just looked at her like "really? your doing this now?". she wouldnt allow me to continue until i copied the code.

but hearing your experience it could have been worse!




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