is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

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DoctorLaw
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is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby DoctorLaw » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:20 am

Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.

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PDaddy
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby PDaddy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:28 am

Directionally speaking, where is the "front"? The rule simply means that "C" is farther away from the figurative front of the diagram than is "D", whichever direction it may be in. It seems very straightforward.

Strict ordering/hierarchy/sequencing games should often be constructed "vertically", especially when talking about front-to-back seating, hierarchies, grades, weight, salaries, etc. Try going top-to-bottom instead of east to west. That works better in a lot of situations. And scrap PowerScore's explanation of "Ordering"...it's dogshit. :roll:

Try constructing branches that connect the variables, but still do a supplemental diagram of the available spaces so that you can input the variables in order. Oftentimes, however, you will only need to do a tree.

You can answer all of ordering questions just by putting the tree together and placing in parentheses the numbers representing the highest and lowest (a range) possible spaces in which each individual variable can go. Do this for each variable before diving into the questions.

For examnple:

"B"
(1,2)

"D"
(1-6)
Last edited by PDaddy on Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:29 am

DoctorLaw wrote:Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.


You are going a bit crazy. :o

If it is a pure sequencing game with, say, 7 people, the order can be 1-7 or 7-1. As long as you keep the order straight in your mind it doesn't matter. It's like looking at a column of students in a classroom from the left side or the right side.

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DoctorLaw
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby DoctorLaw » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:34 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
DoctorLaw wrote:Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.


You are going a bit crazy. :o

If it is a pure sequencing game with, say, 7 people, the order can be 1-7 or 7-1. As long as you keep the order straight in your mind it doesn't matter. It's like looking at a column of students in a classroom from the left side or the right side.


the question was from a linear game and yes, I am going a bit crazy because if it says C is behind D then (C___D) that is how I think of it.

I guess next time I will just follow when it says 'before or behind' it is something to the left and if its 'after or front of' it will be right of.

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tyro
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby tyro » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:34 am

DoctorLaw wrote:Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.

It's always the same in sequential games.
first to last = left to right.

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DoctorLaw
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby DoctorLaw » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:41 am

LOL, I think I got it.. smh i feel dumb already

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PDaddy
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby PDaddy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:41 am

tyro wrote:
DoctorLaw wrote:Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.


It's always the same in sequential games. first to last = left to right.



This isn't true. Like many test takers, I have found that sequencing games often made better sense when I diagrammed them vertically...there's an inherent sense of front to back, heaviest to lightest, oldest to youngest, that you invoke automatically, thus obviating the need to remember your starting point. Rarely, if ever, do I construct an ordering/hierarchy/sequencing game left to right, and I never miss a question. Follow my advice above and try making a tree.

If it's a linear game, it's more complicated than strict sequencing, so you can do whatever, but for "strict sequencing" the tree works best, and everyone I have taught to use the system says they like it better.

bp shinners
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby bp shinners » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:01 pm

PDaddy wrote:
tyro wrote:
DoctorLaw wrote:Ok so for example if there's a rule that states: "C must 4 chairs behind D"

in my head I am thinking: "C_ _ _ D" (considering C is "behind" D)

but the correct diagram to this is: "D _ _ _ C" (how does that show C is "Behind" D) or I'm going crazy.


It's always the same in sequential games. first to last = left to right.



This isn't true. Like many test takers, I have found that sequencing games often made better sense when I diagrammed them vertically...there's an inherent sense of front to back, heaviest to lightest, oldest to youngest, that you invoke automatically, thus obviating the need to remember your starting point. Rarely, if ever, do I construct an ordering/hierarchy/sequencing game left to right, and I never miss a question. Follow my advice above and try making a tree.

If it's a linear game, it's more complicated than strict sequencing, so you can do whatever, but for "strict sequencing" the tree works best, and everyone I have taught to use the system says they like it better.


I've honestly found the exact opposite - there are a few games that people can follow better if you do it vertically, but most students prefer horizontal setups. Of course, that's also my personal bias, so it's very possible that we're teaching our students to prefer the system that we, ourselves, prefer.

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Ocean64
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby Ocean64 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:39 pm

before you start working on any sequencing game, decide which direction the front is and which direction the back is (or first and last), like so:

<==front back==>
or
<==first last==>

and stay consistent while applying the rules in how the variables relate to each other. often it would be easier to look at the first 2 questions (aka orientation questions) to see which direction LSAC perfered to state their answers in (which direction is ahead vs. behind), and then you can put down the direction before you start writing down the rules so you can stay consistent.

in worst case scenario, if you decide to go in the opposite direction LSAC decided to state their answers in, you can always read the answer choices from right to left in the list. i dont recommend this, because it involves extra work.

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tyro
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby tyro » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:52 pm

PDaddy wrote:Rarely, if ever, do I construct an ordering/hierarchy/sequencing game left to right, and I never miss a question.

:shock:
wut?

acrossthelake
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:16 pm

I've tutored the LSAT a little, and the idea I've basically pushed is that the point of a diagram is to organize data in a chart that makes it easy and quick for you to read, understand, and use. The options you've listed are logically equivalent--the one that's easier for you to use is the 'correct' one.

I did a game with a friend once (he wanted to check to see how I would do it, to double check a point he made to a tutee) and I went for a vertical diagram, while he had gone for a horizontal one--but we're even in terms of accuracy and speed. I just have a personal preference of organizing information vertically and so it's the superior diagram for me.

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tyro
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Re: is it just me or others also get mistaken by this rule

Postby tyro » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:01 pm

Interestingly, some prep companies say that even for sequential games that would appear better-organized vertically, such as the layers of cake game, it's still better to set them up horizontally because each answer choice must list the order horizontally.

I personally use a vertical diagram in situations such as the layers of cake game or the ball in a box (J 11) game.

But yeah I do agree overall that people should use what works best for them. It's just surprising to hear the vertical diagram preference for all of these games.

This is because the assumption and norm is the horizontal diagram for both relative ordering (the "tree") and numbered ordering.




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