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 Posts: 744
 Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:43 am
Re: FML! PT 31 Games 2 and 4
Here's how I solved the fourth game  listing all the possibilities underneath each person.
ImageRemoved
Edit: image not working  here's the thread.
As for the second game  many a question asked about it! For the chain, you'd need to do some fancy compound conditional footwork. Some people find it easier to write out the rules in two columns (in things that have effects and out things that have effects) and tackle the questions by running through the rules.
ImageRemoved
Edit: image not working  here's the thread.
As for the second game  many a question asked about it! For the chain, you'd need to do some fancy compound conditional footwork. Some people find it easier to write out the rules in two columns (in things that have effects and out things that have effects) and tackle the questions by running through the rules.
 timmydoeslsat
 Posts: 148
 Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:07 pm
Re: FML! PT 31 Games 2 and 4
Game #2 can be irritating with all of the variables.
This is the way I set up the game:
These rules looking daunting and confusing, but by truly grasping what they mean and reciting in your head, you can mow through these questions.
Consider the last rule. What happens if we know that a soul is on sale, regardless of whether it is new or used?
We know that both raps must be out. We cannot have a situation where a single rap and a single soul is in together. This means that if we have even just a single instance of a R or a S, then the other respective group will have both of its variables out!
Also, notice that the only rule we have about opera is that new opera is not on sale. We know nothing about used opera. The rest of the rules talk about the other four groups, not opera. So we can think of used opera is a random or floater in this game.
Question #7:
This is really just a hypothetical list question you have seen before.
Apply the rules to the answer choices. Go in order of the rules, apply the first rule to all choices and repeat with the other rules.
A) Has both types of jazz and a rap, violation of rule 3
B) Has rap and soul together. We know that is a no go.
C) Neither type of jazz is on sale, so new pop must be included for this to be a complete and accurate list. It does not have new pop.
D) Where is used soul? We have both types of pop, so we must have all soul. Only new soul is listed, thus it is not a complete and accurate list.
E) Proven correct by process of elimination. Use this answer choice as a hypothetical to work with in the game.
Question #8:
What do we know if new soul is not on sale? We already know that new opera is not on sale. If new soul is not on sale, we know that it is NOT the case that both types of pop are on sale. We know that used pop is ON SALE, thus we know that new pop must not be on sale. This is reflected in choice E, although not as strongly as one would expect from a must be true question.
Question #9:
Both types of jazz are on sale. What do we know if both types of jazz are on sale? We know that, via the third rule, that no rap is on sale.
OK, so we have placed six of the 10 types of cds. We have four left to place! We have NP, NS and US, and our favorite random variable of UO. We can go ahead and place UO on BOTH SIDES of the diagram with a question mark beside it to indicate that UO can go on each side with NO PROBLEM.
I am now left with three variables. NP, NS, and US. I am looking at my rules about these variables I have left. I realize that if I were to place the NP in the sale column, that I would be forced to put NS and US, my two remaining variable, in the NOT SALE column.
I do not have to place NP there, however. I then consider what my rules say about having NP out. The fourth rule says that at least one of the jazz must be on sale. That condition is met, so we can place NP in or out with no problems.
The question does ask us, however, for the MINIMUM number of NEW cds that could be ON SALE.
We know that at least one has to be included, the new jazz, since that was given to us.
Of our four remaining variables indicated in the circle, only two are new, so those are the ones that concern us. We have shown that NP can be out. What about NS? If NS goes out, we know we have to take NP with us because of the second rule. So that concept alone, proves that a minimum of one new cd can be in. What happens to the US variable when NS goes out? It can go either place with no rules being broken. The answer is one.
Question 10:
A global question of what must be false.
I notice that the first three answer choices involve opera. I know something new opera not being on sale. So I can look to see if this question will play on the idea that both operas are in. All three play on the idea of neither type of opera being on sale, which is essentially asking us, "Can we place the random UO out?" Of course we can. The other factors of those questions ask us if we can play both types of rap, jazz, or soul out. At this point I would be shocked if we can not do that. Those choices do not scream must be false to me.
I decide to look at D and E. Both include both jazz types being out. The only difference between the two is that one has both souls out and the other has both raps out.
If I have both jazz out, what do I know? I know that new pop is in. I know that used pop is in already because of the first rule. So I know that both pops are in. What happens when both pops are in? The second rule tells us that both souls are in. So, tell me, can it be possible that both jazz types are out and that both soul types are OUT too? No! We have to have both souls IN when both jazz types are out! Thus I know that D cannot be true! D is our answer.
Question 11:
Which one of these could be false if both jazz types are not on sale?
I know that new pop is on sale if both jazz types are not on sale. I know that since both pops are in now (UP is in because of the first rule), it must be the case that both souls are on sale. Remember what we talked about in the beginning with the R's and S's? Those guys cannot both be in during the same scenario. In this case, I have both S in, so I know that BOTH R's will be out. The only variable remaining is the random, UO, and he can go anywhere! Nothing must be true about him. I look at the answer choices. B,C,D, and E must all be true. A does not have to be true.
Question 12:
If NS is the only new cd on sale, I know that NJ, NP, NR will join NO as not on sale. What do I know if I have NS in? Well, it is an S, so that means that both R's will have to be out. I already know the NR is out, so UR will join it.
What do I know if NP is out? I know that via the fourth rule, that at least one jazz must be in. I know that NJ has to be out given the local condition, so UJ must be in.
The only two variables that are left are UO and US. UO is random. And US is now random at this point because the rules no longer govern his placement.
We are looking for something that must be false.
Answer choice A is the answer. We know that UJ has to be on sale.
Question 13:
Ok, we know that four of the five types of used cds are the only cds on sale. We know that every single new cd is not on sale.
We have NJ, NO, NP, NR, NS all not on sale.
If four of the five used cds are in, think about about our R/S rule from the beginning. Could it ever be true that any type of R could be with any type of S? No!
We now know that all the other types are the used cds that are in! That means UO, UJ, UP are in for sure. The last one to be in will either be the R or S.
Answer choices:
A) No, we know that UJ is in.
B) No, we know that UO is in.
C) Looks good, keep it for now
D) No, we know that UJ is in, thus it cannot be true that both jazz types are out.
E) No, we know that four the five used types of cd are on sale. If both of types of S and R are out, we would only have three used cds on sale. Eliminate.
C is the answer choice.
This is the way I set up the game:
These rules looking daunting and confusing, but by truly grasping what they mean and reciting in your head, you can mow through these questions.
Consider the last rule. What happens if we know that a soul is on sale, regardless of whether it is new or used?
We know that both raps must be out. We cannot have a situation where a single rap and a single soul is in together. This means that if we have even just a single instance of a R or a S, then the other respective group will have both of its variables out!
Also, notice that the only rule we have about opera is that new opera is not on sale. We know nothing about used opera. The rest of the rules talk about the other four groups, not opera. So we can think of used opera is a random or floater in this game.
Question #7:
This is really just a hypothetical list question you have seen before.
Apply the rules to the answer choices. Go in order of the rules, apply the first rule to all choices and repeat with the other rules.
A) Has both types of jazz and a rap, violation of rule 3
B) Has rap and soul together. We know that is a no go.
C) Neither type of jazz is on sale, so new pop must be included for this to be a complete and accurate list. It does not have new pop.
D) Where is used soul? We have both types of pop, so we must have all soul. Only new soul is listed, thus it is not a complete and accurate list.
E) Proven correct by process of elimination. Use this answer choice as a hypothetical to work with in the game.
Question #8:
What do we know if new soul is not on sale? We already know that new opera is not on sale. If new soul is not on sale, we know that it is NOT the case that both types of pop are on sale. We know that used pop is ON SALE, thus we know that new pop must not be on sale. This is reflected in choice E, although not as strongly as one would expect from a must be true question.
Question #9:
Both types of jazz are on sale. What do we know if both types of jazz are on sale? We know that, via the third rule, that no rap is on sale.
OK, so we have placed six of the 10 types of cds. We have four left to place! We have NP, NS and US, and our favorite random variable of UO. We can go ahead and place UO on BOTH SIDES of the diagram with a question mark beside it to indicate that UO can go on each side with NO PROBLEM.
I am now left with three variables. NP, NS, and US. I am looking at my rules about these variables I have left. I realize that if I were to place the NP in the sale column, that I would be forced to put NS and US, my two remaining variable, in the NOT SALE column.
I do not have to place NP there, however. I then consider what my rules say about having NP out. The fourth rule says that at least one of the jazz must be on sale. That condition is met, so we can place NP in or out with no problems.
The question does ask us, however, for the MINIMUM number of NEW cds that could be ON SALE.
We know that at least one has to be included, the new jazz, since that was given to us.
Of our four remaining variables indicated in the circle, only two are new, so those are the ones that concern us. We have shown that NP can be out. What about NS? If NS goes out, we know we have to take NP with us because of the second rule. So that concept alone, proves that a minimum of one new cd can be in. What happens to the US variable when NS goes out? It can go either place with no rules being broken. The answer is one.
Question 10:
A global question of what must be false.
I notice that the first three answer choices involve opera. I know something new opera not being on sale. So I can look to see if this question will play on the idea that both operas are in. All three play on the idea of neither type of opera being on sale, which is essentially asking us, "Can we place the random UO out?" Of course we can. The other factors of those questions ask us if we can play both types of rap, jazz, or soul out. At this point I would be shocked if we can not do that. Those choices do not scream must be false to me.
I decide to look at D and E. Both include both jazz types being out. The only difference between the two is that one has both souls out and the other has both raps out.
If I have both jazz out, what do I know? I know that new pop is in. I know that used pop is in already because of the first rule. So I know that both pops are in. What happens when both pops are in? The second rule tells us that both souls are in. So, tell me, can it be possible that both jazz types are out and that both soul types are OUT too? No! We have to have both souls IN when both jazz types are out! Thus I know that D cannot be true! D is our answer.
Question 11:
Which one of these could be false if both jazz types are not on sale?
I know that new pop is on sale if both jazz types are not on sale. I know that since both pops are in now (UP is in because of the first rule), it must be the case that both souls are on sale. Remember what we talked about in the beginning with the R's and S's? Those guys cannot both be in during the same scenario. In this case, I have both S in, so I know that BOTH R's will be out. The only variable remaining is the random, UO, and he can go anywhere! Nothing must be true about him. I look at the answer choices. B,C,D, and E must all be true. A does not have to be true.
Question 12:
If NS is the only new cd on sale, I know that NJ, NP, NR will join NO as not on sale. What do I know if I have NS in? Well, it is an S, so that means that both R's will have to be out. I already know the NR is out, so UR will join it.
What do I know if NP is out? I know that via the fourth rule, that at least one jazz must be in. I know that NJ has to be out given the local condition, so UJ must be in.
The only two variables that are left are UO and US. UO is random. And US is now random at this point because the rules no longer govern his placement.
We are looking for something that must be false.
Answer choice A is the answer. We know that UJ has to be on sale.
Question 13:
Ok, we know that four of the five types of used cds are the only cds on sale. We know that every single new cd is not on sale.
We have NJ, NO, NP, NR, NS all not on sale.
If four of the five used cds are in, think about about our R/S rule from the beginning. Could it ever be true that any type of R could be with any type of S? No!
We now know that all the other types are the used cds that are in! That means UO, UJ, UP are in for sure. The last one to be in will either be the R or S.
Answer choices:
A) No, we know that UJ is in.
B) No, we know that UO is in.
C) Looks good, keep it for now
D) No, we know that UJ is in, thus it cannot be true that both jazz types are out.
E) No, we know that four the five used types of cd are on sale. If both of types of S and R are out, we would only have three used cds on sale. Eliminate.
C is the answer choice.

 Posts: 849
 Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:08 pm
Re: FML! PT 31 Games 2 and 4
If it comforts you any, new and used CDs easily makes it into the top 5 hardest logic games ever and imo is much harder than dinos
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