untimed test scores translating into...?

User avatar
incompetentia
Posts: 2307
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby incompetentia » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:13 pm

bruss wrote:Untimed is for reviewing, hell maybe even drilling. But to do an untimed pt is asinine. Do you guys really need a boost of self-esteem that badly? No wonder the avg of lsat scores Hoover around the 150's.

Image

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:21 pm

darkatillam2 wrote:Lets be frank


Well..."Frank"...who should I be?

On second thought, why don't we NOT...and say that we did. :lol:

User avatar
Emma.
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby Emma. » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:24 pm

darkatillam2 wrote:I think doing untimed practice is a part of "honing your skills". I'm not naive enough to think that I could score a 175 on a timed test simply because I scored that on an untimed test. However, I would argue it is impossible to score a 175 on a timed tested UNTIL you have at least score a 175 on an untimed test. It is with that thought in mind that I am continuing to do more untimed practice until August rolls around in which I will be doing timed tests.

I need to believe I can score 175+ untimed before I can do it timed. When that happens, it's more about practicing my speed and trying to maintain that level of accuracy over the next months.


I don't understand why this would be the case. I think I did 1 untimed test ever, and I don't really understand the value in it. IMO you should do most of your practice timed, because a huge part of LSAT success is time management. Spend the time after your timed section but before you've graded the test and work on any answer you had any issues with during the timed test. Mark any answer you weren't sure about, then come back to it at the end and see if with more time you would have come to a different answer. This way you can "hone your skills" AND work on your timing in a single test.

User avatar
Perdevise
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:45 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby Perdevise » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:26 pm

Are there instances where untimed sections/PTs are worth it? Sure. Untimed tests are necessary if you are introducing yourself to the concepts of the LSAT and are not trying to arrive at some indication of your current score (I used LSAT Blog's method, which involves untimed learning of each section through slicing up older PTs). If you are re-taking, maybe warming up/reaching your previous level through repeating some old, used PTs untimed is ok (not new ones). And barnum makes a reasonable point that if you make a mistake untimed, it is probably a mistake you would make if you were timed as well.

But that means you need to review the concepts. If you don't time yourself, you will never translate the analysis of those concepts into a realistic atmosphere. I don't see how untimed tests, after you have familiarized yourself with the concepts, will help you develop the time-sensitive heuristics and strategies, much less overall section time management skills, you need to achieve a high score. Take Logic Games; if you take 20 minutes per game and check every answer, make and re-make your diagram, get fed up, watch TV and then have a brilliant insight 30 minutes later, there is no way you are simulating the skills the LSAT is designed to measure.

darkatillam2
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby darkatillam2 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:11 am

There is no doubt that timed PTs is something every serious LSAT taker needs to do. That's not really the point. I'm not arguing untimed practice is in some way better than timed. However, the point made about missing an untimed question(s) will probably translate into a missed timed question needs to be addressed. If you are aiming for a 175+ you should at least have the basics down well enough so you won't ever miss a question if doing a test untimed. How else can you move into a timed setting and expect something as high or higher?

User avatar
glucose101
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby glucose101 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:17 am

Clearly if you can't get it right untimed you aren't going to get it right timed; I think that's why no one has answered that portion of your question. I think that's the point of drilling--but usually it's just a particular section. I think you might be better served just drilling your weakness, and taking a PT timed and going over the answers.

User avatar
incompetentia
Posts: 2307
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby incompetentia » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:32 am

Perdevise wrote: [...] If you don't time yourself, you will never translate the analysis of those concepts into a realistic atmosphere. I don't see how untimed tests, after you have familiarized yourself with the concepts, will help you develop the time-sensitive heuristics and strategies, much less overall section time management skills, you need to achieve a high score. Take Logic Games; if you take 20 minutes per game and check every answer, make and re-make your diagram, get fed up, watch TV and then have a brilliant insight 30 minutes later, there is no way you are simulating the skills the LSAT is designed to measure.

Somebody who can get through 3/4 of the section at near-100% accuracy is going to do better than somebody who hasn't fully learned the concepts and is blazing through the entire thing at 70% accuracy. I don't think anybody is advocating that no attention be paid to time, but simply that time is the second of two concerns to be addressed.

User avatar
Ocean64
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:53 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby Ocean64 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:39 am

90% accuracy or better on untimed PTs is necessary but not sufficient for a 170+. i don't see the point of learning how to do things wrong quickly if accuracy is something that a person is suffering from.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:05 am

I've been doing untimed sections (~40 minutes) to understand what questions I fundamentally need to work on if no other issues arise as someone else noted would be beneficial.

If you score a 171 timed and timing isn't an issue for you, you won't score a 172 untimed.

You cannot just worry about timing when you are prepping...

Some people find it fundamentally better to work on accuracy and then move towards timing whilst others prefer to work on both at once..

At the end of the day, it's personal preference and no one way is superior.

But alas, one should work on both eventually...

Noureddine
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby Noureddine » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:04 am

Untimed will give you a good idea of what your potential is. If you can get a certain score untimed, with enough practice, you can get that score on test day.

User avatar
j12
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby j12 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:43 am

Noureddine wrote:Untimed will give you a good idea of what your potential is. If you can get a certain score untimed, with enough practice, you can get that score on test day.

Right, but there's only so many recent practice tests out there, and you really want to be taking those timed to get you in the rhythm of test day. You don't want to take a test untimed and then redo the test timed, because you will go through it faster than normal and it won't give you a realistic picture of where you need to improve. If you take a timed test, you can see exactly how much time each question type is taking you and formulate the best strategy around that. When you finish your timed PT you can review all the questions untimed to learn the logic of working through each question type so hopefully you can get it more quickly next time.

TL;DR : IF you take a test timed and review it untimed you get two beneficialstudy scenarios.
If you take a test untimed and review it timed, then you're just being silly.
Since you only have so many PTs at your disposal, take them timed.

I don't think anyone has said there's no value to doing tests/sections untimed, but that's very early on in the process when you're familiarizing yourself with the question types and what the test is all about. After that you need to drill that 35 minute time frame.

rcweedman
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:09 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby rcweedman » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:52 am

darkatillam2 wrote:So my question is if I can manage to finally get some untimed PT scores of 175-180, what do you think that score would translate into timed?

If you can do that, then I think you have the mental acuity to score that well on a timed test too. I think that just speaks to your potential, however, and actually scoring that well will be relative to your ability to speed up your natural thinking processes.

Don't waste too many of those PT's on untimed practices or you might regret it later if you run out of virgin tests to practice on.

I know that building confidence was a huge thing for me and if you have a personality that needs that sort of positive reinforcement and scoring high on an untimed test boosts your confidence, by all means take some untimed tests and score well on them!

rcweedman
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:09 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby rcweedman » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:57 pm

you can ask this guy a question viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161914

he seems to have a handle on the lsat

User avatar
lovejopd
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby lovejopd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:17 pm

suspicious android wrote:
Perdevise wrote:Edited upon reading later responses: The time limit is the whole point. Your brain is simply not thinking the same way when its untimed. You may develop inefficient techniques (trying out every possible combination) instead of successful techniques (ruling out answers by quickly skimming for violated rules).


How useful is an untimed test for someone scoring 165? Not very. Someone scoring 140? For that person, there's not much point in taking it timed, their accuracy is so low doing things quickly isn't really the issue, they've got to learn how to do it right in the first place. People at the high ends of the scale sometimes forget how hard this test is for other people. The vast majority of test-takers will never touch 160. Telling those people to do only timed practice is like telling a fat kid to get better at basketball by working on his dunking.


I was looking for an answer/tip regarding the value of untimed tests...and just :lol:

User avatar
LexLeon
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby LexLeon » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:12 am

This formula might work:

Discover the average time in which you can answer a question correctly, divide 35 by it, multiply that number by 4, round the resulting number down, and use a score conversion chart to find, from that raw number, your scaled score. *Note: the average amount of time it takes you to answer a question will most likely vary by section, so the above formula need be adjusted to account for that; or, the calculation may work out fine--e.g. validly predict your score--if what you're working with is the mean of the amount if time it takes all types of questions.

Anyway, the most effective way to test what you would score timed is...to take a test timed.

You already have 30 tests under your belt. Remember, it's about quality, not quantity. That's vague; but you probably understand it. Otherwise, PM me if you'd like.

User avatar
LexLeon
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby LexLeon » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:19 am

By the way, I briefly skimmed the comments on this forum and would like to state something:

While taking a practice test untimed will not in any clear way give you a reliable indication of how you'd score on an actual administration, it is an extremely helpful way in which to study the test. How is one to understand the mechanics of a question, if he attempts to complete it in less than one minute and twenty-five seconds?

That being said, it is also helpful, in order to prepare for an actual administration and accurately ascertain your abilities, to complete questions timed and then, in the event that you do not fully understand them, review them later under no temporal constraint.

Using a Janus-faced method such as this is far from foolish; and its rationale is no doubt rooted in principles other than pride.

User avatar
thestalkmore
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby thestalkmore » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 am

bruss wrote:Untimed is for reviewing, hell maybe even drilling. But to do an untimed pt is asinine. Do you guys really need a boost of self-esteem that badly? No wonder the avg of lsat scores Hoover around the 150's.


This is the credited response. I'm a firm believer that there is demonstrable value in doing untimed sections at the outset of your studying for the purposes of acquainting yourself with how it feels to engage the intellectual mechanisms and perform the mental gymnastics responsible for getting answers right. But these are drills. It's the difference between practicing your three point jumper technique and actually sinking it on an opponent's home court. The LSAT is challenging predominately because it is timed, and one shouldn't draw conclusions about one's capacities to score in any range until you're simulating test day conditions. Thinking to yourself that an untimed 180 is equivalent to a 180 under strict timing conditions does nothing but a service to your ego and a disservice to your actual level of preparation.

User avatar
lovejopd
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby lovejopd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Hey,

I did the first 'Untimed'(with the exception of 'timed' Game section) practice yesterday(Prep43), and I got a breakdown of the score below.
Q. Do I have a basic understanding of the LSAT?
Q. Do I need to start 'timed' prep test for the June Test now or I should do more drill by question types?

I really don't know what I have to do for the rest of time before June test...Any savvy test takers helped me please...? :D

Reading: -6
LR1: -2
LR2: -5
Game(timed): 0
Total: -13=169

User avatar
glucose101
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby glucose101 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:42 pm

I say you either 1) Drill LR and RC 2) Start Full PTs timed and then drilling on the side.

User avatar
lovejopd
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby lovejopd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:03 pm

glucose101 wrote:I say you either 1) Drill LR and RC 2) Start Full PTs timed and then drilling on the side.

Oh, thank you for your response~!

I am aiming for 163~165 for the June now...hopefully I can see some improvement right before the June Test...I have 60+ days for a review and prep tests...Do I have a enough time for some improvement?...My nerve recently breaks down...and I have a terrible sleeping cycle :cry: ....

User avatar
glucose101
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby glucose101 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:27 pm

Ya, I def think you'll reach your goal. Untimed, you proved you can do it. Now, just really try to translate that into a consistent pace on the timed PTs. Reset your sleep cycle now if you can; reset your nerves if you can. Try going to the gym daily for about 45 mins. Take breaks from testing (I think this maybe your issue) to ward off burn out.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13918
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:30 pm

Depends on how much extra time you take, and your accuracy on the questions you do finish.

My untimed would have only been slightly better than my timed PTs. The only section I ever had timing issues with was LG, and I only ever needed about 5 extra minutes to finish the last 3-4 questions.

For someone who can only get through 60% of all questions, but whose accuracy is pretty good on the ones he does finish, an untimed score would be a LOT higher than timed.

User avatar
lovejopd
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby lovejopd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:44 pm

glucose101 wrote:Ya, I def think you'll reach your goal. Untimed, you proved you can do it. Now, just really try to translate that into a consistent pace on the timed PTs. Reset your sleep cycle now if you can; reset your nerves if you can. Try going to the gym daily for about 45 mins. Take breaks from testing (I think this maybe your issue) to ward off burn out.

Thank you for your support~! Really appreciate it :)

User avatar
lovejopd
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm

Re: untimed test scores translating into...?

Postby lovejopd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:45 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Depends on how much extra time you take, and your accuracy on the questions you do finish.

My untimed would have only been slightly better than my timed PTs. The only section I ever had timing issues with was LG, and I only ever needed about 5 extra minutes to finish the last 3-4 questions.

For someone who can only get through 60% of all questions, but whose accuracy is pretty good on the ones he does finish, an untimed score would be a LOT higher than timed.

Valid Point~

Yeah, I should check out how much time I need more for LR and Reading~!
Sometimes I run out of time for Game too if I bump into a hard core game :-(




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: galeatus and 3 guests