URM and the LSAT Observations

Woozy
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Woozy » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:47 pm

PDaddy wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
To an extent, the test itself is race-neutral with regards to the language of the questionetc.


It is "race-neutral" to the extent that any person from any race or ethnicity, given the proper long-term exposure to the language, syntax/sentence structure, etc. should be able to understand the the questions as posed. The problem is that the test is not "socioeconomically neutral". Remember, i stated that there are students of all backgrounds who are disadvantaged when it comes to the LSAT.

White, suburban students raised in schools with top teachers, the best resources and educated parents/families are more likely to understand the language of the LSAT. It doesn't make them more intelligent, it simply means they are immersed in the language and it is second nature to them. And when I speak of "language", I not only mean the written language; I mean understanding the mechanics of logic.

To the white students: How many of you believe Jay-Z or Diddy could be a better lawyer than you can? They both hated school. Diddy went to Howard and dropped out. But they are both geniuses. Listening to them speak, they probably wouldn't do well on the LSAT. If there was a standardized test for music moguls, they would probably do worse than Tommy Matolla or David Geffen. But they are both on track to become billionaire entertainment moguls, and, given their starting points, they have accomplished much more than either of the latter. Larry bird didn't test well at the pre-draft workouts. He was a sorry athlete to the scouts. Look at his accomplishments! You can't "test" everything.

These pointless threads are usually started and perpetuated by jealous malcontents who can't wrap their heads around the concept that a student with lower scores and grades might nevertheless predict as a better law student and lawyer than they do, or at least be as good. If such a student got in and you didn't, the committee liked them just a little better, and they earned it. Just accept it and move on.


The LSAT is supposed to predict law school grades, and 1L grades in particular. That's it. And it does this better than any other single metric.

It is not a test of the quality of lawyer you will be, how much of a genius you are, etc. Your criticism of the LSAT is like criticizing a math test for failing to identify students who know a lot of ancient history. It is simply outside the scope of the test. You said it yourself: you can't test everything, and the LSAT is not trying to.

The fact that it can stand as a barrier to entry to some that may make great lawyers is not a problem with the test itself, but with the admissions and testing process of law schools.

071816
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby 071816 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:18 pm

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Jeffort
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Jeffort » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:46 pm

KingMenes wrote:ADVERTISEMENT: ---> Neo-Eugenics LSAT Tutoring Co.

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LMFAO :D

WSJ_Law
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby WSJ_Law » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:38 am

So "street smarts" (idk wtf this means) are what the LSAT should incorporate in its testing curriculum, PDaddy?

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blacklawboss
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby blacklawboss » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:30 am

flexityflex86 wrote:dude you're living in a bubble. most people don't get a 167. most people start at a 140, and most people don't study more than a couple of weeks.


David Duke unmask yourself!

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:58 pm

I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.

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rinkrat19
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:00 pm

Philosopher King wrote:I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.
Well-argued. :roll:

indo
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby indo » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:06 pm

DonnaDraper wrote:
shoeshine wrote:are you saying URMs are lazy?


URMS are not lazy, they are human. And by that, I mean they are trying to achieve their goals with the minimal amount of cost to themselves (time, studying effort, emotional drain, etc.) Whether they have the resources or any social/cultural pressures is another story, which is what makes this issue so so complicated.

For example, take the classic instance on TLS (which is not representative, but still) in which a person posts in the "what are my chances" thread and then everyone shouts retake at them. People retake because they want to get into a particular school or type of school (T1)(stating the obvious), and if a person has a reasonable shot at getting into a school with a first-time LSAT, chances are he/she will not be retaking. The point is (once again disregarding resources, etc) URMs and a non-URMs are in a different place despite the exact same GPA/LSAT stats, with URMs having a greater likelihood of getting the law school they want, assuming the URM and non-URM both want the same school/type of school. So why study hard to boost that 167 when you don't have to? This is not laziness. This is practicality. If I were in that position, I would be thinking the same way, and I am not a URM.


This is call entitlement. you do not have to do your best.

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JustE
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby JustE » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:08 pm

Can't believe I haven't been following this...

*tagged

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:09 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Philosopher King wrote:I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.
Well-argued. :roll:


Why thank you!

indo
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby indo » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:12 pm

Philosopher King wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Philosopher King wrote:I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.
Well-argued. :roll:


Why thank you!


The following is what SCBA wrote on this thread on June 30, 2011.scba17 Post subject: Re: URM and the LSAT ObservationsPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:09 am


Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:48 am
Posts: 3 I have been following this board for over a year while I was preparing for the lsat. I am over 40 and have no intention
of going to law school. I was just looking for part time income and will be going back to school for an mfa
so I obviously need additional income streams. I am also black and born here in the United States. i don't understand the
term African american perhaps because I actually know people from places like Nigeria and Botswana and etc.

I only joined this board when I saw your message. As a youngster I routinely scored in the 99th percentile on standardized tests and remember scoring in that range senior year on practice LSATs. The people I associated with had similar scores. They were almost all caucasian. We all also knew that standardized tests were merely a puzzle to be cracked with practice. I had heard the cultural bias argument. I actually had to ask myself whether my test performance meant I wasn't authentically black. Fortunately I wasn't associating with people who encouraged that mindset. But I know of other black people who did and it always resulted in a downhill slide.

Bluntly if a black person scores well on those tests he is made to feel as if he is a traitor to his race. i know white people hate being called racist. Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers. You can plead ignorance but in the case of blacks like me we represent an evil force that opposes their entire agenda. Note I am not nor ever will be a Republican- I feel that needs to be said.

On one of my test administrations a black woman walked in just seconds before the doors were closed. She hadn't brought pencils or highlighters and had to borrow them from others in the room. She didn't want to be there and no doubt felt it was unfair that she had to take a "white" test to go to law school. Showing up late and without materials was a way to show either contempt, fear or both. At the end she can simply say that the test was bias and that she shouldn't have had to take it anyway.

The danger for certain URMs is that any success on their part can be considered an insult to others involved in the "struggle". One way of guaranteeing the respect of your peers is to make sure you don't do anything that harms their interests. These same individuals are more than capable of outworking anyone when it comes to something more acceptable to their local contacts.

In other words I believe you about the lack of work effort. I've seen it. I've been forced to be understanding of it. I have given up on solutions and don't think it's really my place to suggest them. i just don't want to ever have to take a special "african-american" test to apply for any job or position.
Last edited by indo on Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby bk1 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:07 pm

indo wrote:Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers.


This comparison is totally not blowing it out of proportion or anything like that.

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:23 pm

In all fairness to LSAC, I would posit that all of academia is biased against non-white persons. I don't think many people in academia are racists but we all have subconscious biases (people of all races do I beleive) no matter how hard we try to fight them because we recognize that they're wrong. I was just thinking and I have had like 26 different professors in my undergrad career thus far and they were all white. Isn't that strange? Even my black American literature class was taught by a white guy! I know a black philosophy professor at my school though and he was actually a practicing lawyer before getting his Ph.D. in philosophy. With that said, I do think academia is doing a lot to try and make college a more fair, welcome, and diverse experience. It will take time though.

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JustE
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby JustE » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:25 pm

Philosopher King wrote:In all fairness to LSAC, I would posit that all of academia is biased against non-white persons. I don't think many people in academia are racists but we all have subconscious biases (people of all races do I beleive) no matter how hard we try to fight them because we recognize that they're wrong. I was just thinking and I have had like 26 different professors in my undergrad career thus far and they were all white. Isn't that strange? Even my black American literature class was taught by a white guy! I know a black philosophy professor at my school though and he was actually a practicing lawyer before getting his Ph.D. in philosophy. With that said, I do think academia is doing a lot to try and make college a more fair, welcome, and diverse experience. It will take time though.


This is why we go to HBCU's... Different experience.

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:36 pm

JustE wrote:This is why we go to HBCU's... Different experience.


Good point. And I would think Hillsdale College would be a good place for black students to go since they are likely the least biased of any non-HBCUs. I mean, they had a no discrimination policy when they opened in 1844 and white and black students studied together as equals. In 1955, one of their sports teams refused to play at some other college that wasn't going to allow their black players to play. The team unanimously decided to give up the opportunity rather than give into racism. That's the type of school it is.

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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby indo » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
indo wrote:Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers.


This comparison is totally not blowing it out of proportion or anything like that.



I did not wrote " Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers "

I just copy and paste what SCBA 17 post on this thread. ( see the earlier post by SCBA 17 )

USA used to be the greatest country in the world but no longer, we borrowed too much money and yet we give too much foreign aid and entitlement.

If i can get in to harvard , yale and other with lower score why should i study harder ?

when this entitlement going to end ?????

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Check out this article about HBCU. It's from the year 2000 but I was interested to see these numbers. The fact that a HBCU has over 90% white students is surprising. My college has a lower percentage of whites on campus for heaven's sake!

blackeyeliner
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby blackeyeliner » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:52 am

Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:58 am

blackeyeliner wrote:Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!


See! Testimonial proof that the LSAT is racially biased against non-white test-takers. I too hate the test with a passion. We all do so let's do something about it.

indo
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby indo » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:01 am

blackeyeliner wrote:Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!


Congratualtion . Hope you get into the school of your dream.

I am glad that you work hard and got great score.

How come asian and hispanic do better in LSAT than Black ? After all is the white who wrote the test ?

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Duramax80
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Duramax80 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:06 am

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blackeyeliner
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby blackeyeliner » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:10 am

Duramax80 wrote:--ImageRemoved--


I'm not whining, atleast, not anymore. My LSAT score with my undergrad pedigree and GPA and my URM status can get me into any law school in this country so I couldn't give a rat's a$$

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Duramax80
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Duramax80 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:15 am

Here is a video of the LSAC coming up with LSAT questions.

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Philosopher King
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Philosopher King » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:16 am

blackeyeliner wrote:I'm not whining, atleast, not anymore. My LSAT score with my undergrad pedigree and GPA and my URM status can get me into any law school in this country so I couldn't give a rat's a$$


I agree. And I also think people use too many pictures here at TLS.

Duramax80 wrote:Here is a video of the LSAC coming up with LSAT questions.

Image


This is absolutely the case (with the exception of the end where the one guy is revealed to be black--this is clearly a stolen idea from Dave Chappelle). I bet LSAC has racist hiring policies. I mean, after all they violate the ADA so why not the Civil Rights Act too while they're at it. They think they're above the law.

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Duramax80
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Re: URM and the LSAT Observations

Postby Duramax80 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:34 am

Philosopher King wrote:This is absolutely the case (with the exception of the end where the one guy is revealed to be black--this is clearly a stolen idea from Dave Chappelle). I bet LSAC has racist hiring policies. I mean, after all they violate the ADA so why not the Civil Rights Act too while they're at it. They think they're above the law.


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