URM and the LSAT Observations Forum

[Woozy]

To an extent, the test itself is race-neutral with regards to the language of the questionetc.

It is "race-neutral" to the extent that any person from any race or ethnicity, given the proper long-term exposure to the language, syntax/sentence structure, etc. should be able to understand the the questions as posed. The problem is that the test is not "socioeconomically neutral". Remember, i stated that there are students of all backgrounds who are disadvantaged when it comes to the LSAT.

White, suburban students raised in schools with top teachers, the best resources and educated parents/families are more likely to understand the language of the LSAT. It doesn't make them more intelligent, it simply means they are immersed in the language and it is second nature to them. And when I speak of "language", I not only mean the written language; I mean understanding the mechanics of logic.

To the white students: How many of you believe Jay-Z or Diddy could be a better lawyer than you can? They both hated school. Diddy went to Howard and dropped out. But they are both geniuses. Listening to them speak, they probably wouldn't do well on the LSAT. If there was a standardized test for music moguls, they would probably do worse than Tommy Matolla or David Geffen. But they are both on track to become billionaire entertainment moguls, and, given their starting points, they have accomplished much more than either of the latter. Larry bird didn't test well at the pre-draft workouts. He was a sorry athlete to the scouts. Look at his accomplishments! You can't "test" everything.

These pointless threads are usually started and perpetuated by jealous malcontents who can't wrap their heads around the concept that a student with lower scores and grades might nevertheless predict as a better law student and lawyer than they do, or at least be as good. If such a student got in and you didn't, the committee liked them just a little better, and they earned it. Just accept it and move on.

The LSAT is supposed to predict law school grades, and 1L grades in particular. That's it. And it does this better than any other single metric.

It is not a test of the quality of lawyer you will be, how much of a genius you are, etc. Your criticism of the LSAT is like criticizing a math test for failing to identify students who know a lot of ancient history. It is simply outside the scope of the test. You said it yourself: you can't test everything, and the LSAT is not trying to.

The fact that it can stand as a barrier to entry to some that may make great lawyers is not a problem with the test itself, but with the admissions and testing process of law schools.

[071816]

--ImageRemoved--

[Jeffort]

ADVERTISEMENT: ---> Neo-Eugenics LSAT Tutoring Co.

While operating in 18 major confederate cities, we have discouraged 18 of the 100 of the 40 Million African Americans who have sought our services from attending Law School. Likewise, we have 7x the proportion of 99th percentile scorers than those that have ever set for the exam itself. If this makes absolutely no fucking sense to you, then you are emotionally bias. True, we would suck as classmates. Still, we offer a special paper bag discount$$$$$, special poll tax discount, and a real goodie-the grandfather clause discount. Also, at Neo-Eugenics LSAT Tutoring we cater to the Willie Lynch model of URM skill development, perfected over 300 years of cultural integration. At Neo-eugenics LSAT Tutoring Co., we don’t simply focus on building test taking skills, but we make non-scientific cultural observations and judge our clients on that basis. If you register for our LSAT courses, we will throw in the neo-eugenic classic The Bell Curve.

Disclaimer: We are a secret society of tutors, led by an even more secret super tutor. All opinions stated in this advertisement are those we endorse, but do not necessarily believe. We are the racial circle-jerks of LSAT study.

Endorsements: Stormfront, Tea Party University, National Militia Bortherhood of the Secessionist States of America, and the States Have Rights Association

LMFAO

[WSJ_Law]

So "street smarts" (idk wtf this means) are what the LSAT should incorporate in its testing curriculum, PDaddy?

[blacklawboss]

dude you're living in a bubble. most people don't get a 167. most people start at a 140, and most people don't study more than a couple of weeks.

David Duke unmask yourself!

[Philosopher King]

I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.

[rinkrat19]

I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.

Well-argued.

[indo]

are you saying URMs are lazy?

URMS are not lazy, they are human. And by that, I mean they are trying to achieve their goals with the minimal amount of cost to themselves (time, studying effort, emotional drain, etc.) Whether they have the resources or any social/cultural pressures is another story, which is what makes this issue so so complicated.

For example, take the classic instance on TLS (which is not representative, but still) in which a person posts in the "what are my chances" thread and then everyone shouts retake at them. People retake because they want to get into a particular school or type of school (T1)(stating the obvious), and if a person has a reasonable shot at getting into a school with a first-time LSAT, chances are he/she will not be retaking. The point is (once again disregarding resources, etc) URMs and a non-URMs are in a different place despite the exact same GPA/LSAT stats, with URMs having a greater likelihood of getting the law school they want, assuming the URM and non-URM both want the same school/type of school. So why study hard to boost that 167 when you don't have to? This is not laziness. This is practicality. If I were in that position, I would be thinking the same way, and I am not a URM.

This is call entitlement. you do not have to do your best.

[JustE]

Can't believe I haven't been following this...

*tagged

[Philosopher King]

I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.

Well-argued.

Why thank you!

[indo]

I think the LSAT is probably biased against non-white persons. This is just another fault of standardized testing. Hey LSAC, give it up. The scam is over. You're done. You've been exposed.

Well-argued.

Why thank you!

The following is what SCBA wrote on this thread on June 30, 2011.scba17 Post subject: Re: URM and the LSAT ObservationsPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:09 am


Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:48 am
Posts: 3 I have been following this board for over a year while I was preparing for the lsat. I am over 40 and have no intention
of going to law school. I was just looking for part time income and will be going back to school for an mfa
so I obviously need additional income streams. I am also black and born here in the United States. i don't understand the
term African american perhaps because I actually know people from places like Nigeria and Botswana and etc.

I only joined this board when I saw your message. As a youngster I routinely scored in the 99th percentile on standardized tests and remember scoring in that range senior year on practice LSATs. The people I associated with had similar scores. They were almost all caucasian. We all also knew that standardized tests were merely a puzzle to be cracked with practice. I had heard the cultural bias argument. I actually had to ask myself whether my test performance meant I wasn't authentically black. Fortunately I wasn't associating with people who encouraged that mindset. But I know of other black people who did and it always resulted in a downhill slide.

Bluntly if a black person scores well on those tests he is made to feel as if he is a traitor to his race. i know white people hate being called racist. Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers. You can plead ignorance but in the case of blacks like me we represent an evil force that opposes their entire agenda. Note I am not nor ever will be a Republican- I feel that needs to be said.

On one of my test administrations a black woman walked in just seconds before the doors were closed. She hadn't brought pencils or highlighters and had to borrow them from others in the room. She didn't want to be there and no doubt felt it was unfair that she had to take a "white" test to go to law school. Showing up late and without materials was a way to show either contempt, fear or both. At the end she can simply say that the test was bias and that she shouldn't have had to take it anyway.

The danger for certain URMs is that any success on their part can be considered an insult to others involved in the "struggle". One way of guaranteeing the respect of your peers is to make sure you don't do anything that harms their interests. These same individuals are more than capable of outworking anyone when it comes to something more acceptable to their local contacts.

In other words I believe you about the lack of work effort. I've seen it. I've been forced to be understanding of it. I have given up on solutions and don't think it's really my place to suggest them. i just don't want to ever have to take a special "african-american" test to apply for any job or position.

[bk1]

Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers.

This comparison is totally not blowing it out of proportion or anything like that.

[Philosopher King]

In all fairness to LSAC, I would posit that all of academia is biased against non-white persons. I don't think many people in academia are racists but we all have subconscious biases (people of all races do I beleive) no matter how hard we try to fight them because we recognize that they're wrong. I was just thinking and I have had like 26 different professors in my undergrad career thus far and they were all white. Isn't that strange? Even my black American literature class was taught by a white guy! I know a black philosophy professor at my school though and he was actually a practicing lawyer before getting his Ph.D. in philosophy. With that said, I do think academia is doing a lot to try and make college a more fair, welcome, and diverse experience. It will take time though.

[JustE]

In all fairness to LSAC, I would posit that all of academia is biased against non-white persons. I don't think many people in academia are racists but we all have subconscious biases (people of all races do I beleive) no matter how hard we try to fight them because we recognize that they're wrong. I was just thinking and I have had like 26 different professors in my undergrad career thus far and they were all white. Isn't that strange? Even my black American literature class was taught by a white guy! I know a black philosophy professor at my school though and he was actually a practicing lawyer before getting his Ph.D. in philosophy. With that said, I do think academia is doing a lot to try and make college a more fair, welcome, and diverse experience. It will take time though.

This is why we go to HBCU's... Different experience.

[Philosopher King]

This is why we go to HBCU's... Different experience.

Good point. And I would think Hillsdale College would be a good place for black students to go since they are likely the least biased of any non-HBCUs. I mean, they had a no discrimination policy when they opened in 1844 and White and Black students studied together as equals. In 1955, one of their sports teams refused to play at some other college that wasn't going to allow their black players to play. The team unanimously decided to give up the opportunity rather than give into racism. That's the type of school it is.

[indo]

Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers.

This comparison is totally not blowing it out of proportion or anything like that.

I did not wrote " Imagine being compared to the equivalent of the jews who led other jews into the gas chambers "

I just copy and paste what SCBA 17 post on this thread. ( see the earlier post by SCBA 17 )

USA used to be the greatest country in the world but no longer, we borrowed too much money and yet we give too much foreign aid and entitlement.

If i can get in to harvard , yale and other with lower score why should i study harder ?

when this entitlement going to end ?????

[Philosopher King]

Check out this article about HBCU. It's from the year 2000 but I was interested to see these numbers. The fact that a HBCU has over 90% white students is surprising. My college has a lower percentage of whites on campus for heaven's sake!

[blackeyeliner]

Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!

[Philosopher King]

Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!

See! Testimonial proof that the LSAT is racially biased against non-white test-takers. I too hate the test with a passion. We all do so let's do something about it.

[indo]

Who is writing the LSAT? What is the race composition of the makers of the test? This needs to be reflective of the racial composition of the broader society to atleast move in a fair environment IMO.
I'm a URM that scored 169 in Dec 2011 and I can say without a doubt that I had to think differently to do well on that test. Perhaps we as minorities were raised to think differently, I know I was. I spent hours sometimes arguing over what really "strengthened" or "weakened" a logical reasoning question because I just couldn't get it. But as they say, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" so when i prepped for my LSAT i had to train my brain to "think white" and i found it to be effective. As a URM taking the LSAT test I had to wear two hats which me and my other successful URM friends like to call the "duality of conscience": the LSAT hat in which you would try to "think white" and the other hat which is your true self.
I hate that test with a passion! So glad it's over!

Congratualtion . Hope you get into the school of your dream.

I am glad that you work hard and got great score.

How come asian and hispanic do better in LSAT than Black ? After all is the white who wrote the test ?

[Duramax80]

--ImageRemoved--

[blackeyeliner]

--ImageRemoved--

I'm not whining, atleast, not anymore. My LSAT score with my undergrad pedigree and GPA and my URM status can get me into any law school in this country so I couldn't give a rat's a$$

[Duramax80]

Here is a video of the LSAC coming up with LSAT questions.

[Philosopher King]

I'm not whining, atleast, not anymore. My LSAT score with my undergrad pedigree and GPA and my URM status can get me into any law school in this country so I couldn't give a rat's a$$

I agree. And I also think people use too many pictures here at TLS.

Here is a video of the LSAC coming up with LSAT questions.

This is absolutely the case (with the exception of the end where the one guy is revealed to be black--this is clearly a stolen idea from Dave Chappelle). I bet LSAC has racist hiring policies. I mean, after all they violate the ADA so why not the Civil Rights Act too while they're at it. They think they're above the law.

[Duramax80]

This is absolutely the case (with the exception of the end where the one guy is revealed to be black--this is clearly a stolen idea from Dave Chappelle). I bet LSAC has racist hiring policies. I mean, after all they violate the ADA so why not the Civil Rights Act too while they're at it. They think they're above the law.

--ImageRemoved--