High score diminished by retake?

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:55 am

I got a 167 on the June test. This was disappointing, given that my PT level was several points higher. I want T-14 and hopefully T-4, with Harvard being my dream school, so I am certain to retake.

I have read that the data we see from school's represents the median of the highest scores earned by their student body, rather than the median of every LSAT their students have ever taken. But this doesn't necessarily mean they don't care about a sketchy first LSAT score. It could merely mean they want to report higher numbers to the ABA.

Assuming I manage to score 3-5 points higher on the next test (going for the easy Dec curve), what specific penalties I take on? Say I get a 172; will universities only look at the 172, or will they average it out with the 167.

P.S.: I'm not applying until 2012.
Last edited by rgndvo on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:57 am

URM AA with a 167?? I wouldn't stress. Definitely retake if you want to, but you certainly do not need to in order to be T14 secure.

However, what's your GPA?

User avatar
Helicio
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby Helicio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:04 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:URM AA with a 167?? I wouldn't stress. Definitely retake if you want to, but you certainly do not need to in order to be T14 secure.

However, what's your GPA?


I think he wants T-4, even though he thinks T-14 would be nice.

As a URM, though, if you have like a 3.65 then you should have a shot at some T14s and if you have like a 3.8 or 3.9 then you should have a great shot at a lot of T-14s. So yeah, like Gaia said, unless your dead set on the top 4 then you should be good now and I would only retake if you believe the stress is worth it.

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:07 pm

Unfortunately, I just have a 3.6 cumulative and I think LSAC will diminish that to 3.5 or so given that I have 4-5 B+ counting as a 3.5.

And yes, I want T-4. Also want to do better on the freaking LSAT. :(
Last edited by rgndvo on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:12 pm

Hmmm...

a 3.5 167 AA is not Top 4 secure. You still have a chance but Y and S are probably out with that GPA and H will be borderline at best. Decent shot at Columbia, but again, not a sure thing. If you know you can do better, definitely retake. If you get a 170+, you're set at H.

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:15 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Hmmm...

a 3.5 167 AA is not Top 4 secure. You still have a chance but Y and S are probably out with that GPA and H will be borderline at best. Decent shot at Columbia, but again, not a sure thing. If you know you can do better, definitely retake. If you get a 170+, you're set at H.


I have one more full year of college (had a terrible start, but earned a 3.9 last year) before apps, so I could probably get it up to a 3.7. I really need to calculate my LSAC GPA, because I have no idea whether my 3.6 would actually be diminished to 3.5.

Out of curiosity, Miss, what do you think of my chances (pre-retake) at the lesser T-14 schools? Also, even if I can hit the 170's, would they hold the lower score against me?

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:11 pm

rgndvo wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Hmmm...

a 3.5 167 AA is not Top 4 secure. You still have a chance but Y and S are probably out with that GPA and H will be borderline at best. Decent shot at Columbia, but again, not a sure thing. If you know you can do better, definitely retake. If you get a 170+, you're set at H.


I have one more full year of college (had a terrible start, but earned a 3.9 last year) before apps, so I could probably get it up to a 3.7. I really need to calculate my LSAC GPA, because I have no idea whether my 3.6 would actually be diminished to 3.5.

Out of curiosity, Miss, what do you think of my chances (pre-retake) at the lesser T-14 schools? Also, even if I can hit the 170's, would they hold the lower score against me?


LOL. Please don't call me Miss.

Calculate your LSAC GPA using this tool: http://www.lawpad.com/gpa_calculator/ Certainly do all you can to raise your GPA. If you had a 3.7/3.8 GPA, you would need to retake to get into H.

You have a great chance at the T7-14. Expect to get in with some $. T4-T6...You also have a fighting chance but you need a well-crafted application. I would anticipate a CCN acceptance but I would not expect $.

If you hit the 170s, you will be one of the very, very few AA males to get that kind of score. They will see your 167, but I know several AA males that retook and scored in the mid 170s, and had cycles that reflected their higher score, rather than the average score. I took the LSAT three times. I got a 166 twice, then I got a 172. Though my cycle was highly unusual, I think H only considered my highest score. I would not worry about it. If you get a 170, you're pretty much set.

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:19 pm

Perhaps Miss might have been overly-polite for a girl with your avatar 8) .

Were you admitted into H with the 166 166 172? What did the rest of your application look like?

I also have an absence, due to an urgent surgical procedure. If I don't like my score in December, could I write it again, or would that be violating the 3-score rule?

In terms of $, do HYS *ever* offer it? (I know I'd need to get at least 5 points higher on the LSAT to think about that...)

Thanks for your other responses, Gaia.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:32 pm

rgndvo wrote:Perhaps Miss might have been overly-polite for a girl with your avatar 8) .

Were you admitted into H with the 166 166 172? What did the rest of your application look like?

I also have an absence, due to an urgent surgical procedure. If I don't like my score in December, could I write it again, or would that be violating the 3-score rule?

In terms of $, do HYS *ever* offer it? (I know I'd need to get at least 5 points higher on the LSAT to think about that...)

Thanks for your other responses, Gaia.


Yes. My application was otherwise very strong...GPA was 3.9+. I had a bit of an anomalous cycle...you would need to PM me for details.

"Score cancellations count towards the no-more-than-3-LSATs-per-2-years-rule, while absences don't." http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/ca ... -lsat.html So you can certainly take it again if you don't like it in December. But, I suggest that you retake in October. October gives you plenty of time to get your score in and send apps 'early.' Though you can send your apps in before then, you have to be sure to tell schools to wait for your October/December score otherwise they will review your application with your 167.

HYS does not offer any merit aid. It is all need-based. In terms of generosity, H kinda pales in comparison to Y and S. But if you come from truly unfortunate socioeconomic circumstances, H will take care of you and give you ample grant aid with various loan options.

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:41 pm

I'm actually not applying until next year (i.e. hoping to attend law school in 2013), so I think December's the time to retest.

Though I'm rather new to this process, I'm guessing that H emphasized your top LSAT rather than averaging the three. Though your stats sound outstanding, a 168 (172+166+166/3]) at H would've been difficult to overcome.
Last edited by rgndvo on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
20121109
Posts: 2149
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:59 pm

rgndvo wrote:I'm actually not applying until next year (i.e. hoping to attend law school in 2013), so I think December's the time to retest.


Oh yeah, so definitely take your time. You're correct; there is certainly no rush :)

I have a feeling you'll be just fine!

User avatar
Cade McNown
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:17 pm

OP, to actually answer your question, the CR is that it varies. Some schools only consider the highest score, others average scores, still many others consider all scores...

Your best bet is to go to each school's website, find the FAQ section on the admissions page, and search the page for "multiple". Nearly every school will have an answer to your question there. I did not have the numbers for a t-4 application, but here's some examples of policies from the lower t-14/t-20 that I used when applying:

Georgetown: Average (with caveat that they may use only higher if you only take it twice)
-From Georgetown website: "For reporting purposes, Georgetown adheres to the ABA policy of reporting the higher LSAT score. For evaluation purposes, the Georgetown Admissions Committee typically averages LSAT scores. Georgetown may consider the higher LSAT score if you have only taken the LSAT twice. "

Michigan: Highest weighted more but average also considered
-“The LSDAS report for an applicant who has sat for the LSAT more than once will show every score or cancellation, as well as the average score. The ABA requires law schools to report score information based on an admitted student's highest score, and therefore, that is the score to which we give the most weight. We do, however, consider the average score as well, because data provided by the Law School Admissions Council suggests that it has the greatest predictive utility

Duke: Averages, but may consider higher score only if you provide justification that they consider compelling in a note with your application
-“In the case of multiple test scores, data show that the average score is generally the most useful in predicting law school performance. However, Duke may place greater weight on a high score if the applicant provides compelling information about why that score is a better indication of his or her potential. If you feel that one or more of your test scores does not accurately reflect your ability or potential, please explain this disparity in a separate attachment.”

Texas: Considers all scores and average score.
-"Candidates with multiple LSAT scores will be evaluated using all reported scores. However, the Law School will no longer solely consider an applicant’s average score in the admissions review process."

UCLA: Highest score
-"Our general policy is to consider the highest LSAT score attained, although we will take note of all scores. In the case of a significant discrepancy between scores, applicants are advised to address it in their application. It is always helpful for the Admissions Committee to be aware of any factors that may have adversely or positively impacted one’s performance on the LSAT. Item 11 on our application is a suitable place to provide such explanation.”

USC: All scores considered without averaging
- "We report the highest LSAT score to the American Bar Association and other organizations. However, all scores (not averaged) will be considered in the admissions review process. If there is a significant discrepancy in your scores (five or more points), we encourage you to submit an addendum in order to put the variance into context for our Admissions Committee.”

Vanderbilt: could not find anything on web site

Cornell: Higher score if at least 3 points higher
-“In general, Cornell Law’s policy is to take the higher score if it is at least 3 points higher than a prior score, but the Admissions Committee invites applicants to submit an addendum to their application explaining the different LSAT scores and why we should take the higher score.”

Northwestern: Highest score

rgndvo
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:36 pm

Cade McNown wrote:OP, to actually answer your question, the CR is that it varies. Some schools only consider the highest score, others average scores, still many others consider all scores...

Your best bet is to go to each school's website, find the FAQ section on the admissions page, and search the page for "multiple". Nearly every school will have an answer to your question there. I did not have the numbers for a t-4 application, but here's some examples of policies from the lower t-14/t-20 that I used when applying:

Georgetown: Average (with caveat that they may use only higher if you only take it twice)
-From Georgetown website: "For reporting purposes, Georgetown adheres to the ABA policy of reporting the higher LSAT score. For evaluation purposes, the Georgetown Admissions Committee typically averages LSAT scores. Georgetown may consider the higher LSAT score if you have only taken the LSAT twice. "

Michigan: Highest weighted more but average also considered
-“The LSDAS report for an applicant who has sat for the LSAT more than once will show every score or cancellation, as well as the average score. The ABA requires law schools to report score information based on an admitted student's highest score, and therefore, that is the score to which we give the most weight. We do, however, consider the average score as well, because data provided by the Law School Admissions Council suggests that it has the greatest predictive utility

Duke: Averages, but may consider higher score only if you provide justification that they consider compelling in a note with your application
-“In the case of multiple test scores, data show that the average score is generally the most useful in predicting law school performance. However, Duke may place greater weight on a high score if the applicant provides compelling information about why that score is a better indication of his or her potential. If you feel that one or more of your test scores does not accurately reflect your ability or potential, please explain this disparity in a separate attachment.”

Texas: Considers all scores and average score.
-"Candidates with multiple LSAT scores will be evaluated using all reported scores. However, the Law School will no longer solely consider an applicant’s average score in the admissions review process."

UCLA: Highest score
-"Our general policy is to consider the highest LSAT score attained, although we will take note of all scores. In the case of a significant discrepancy between scores, applicants are advised to address it in their application. It is always helpful for the Admissions Committee to be aware of any factors that may have adversely or positively impacted one’s performance on the LSAT. Item 11 on our application is a suitable place to provide such explanation.”

USC: All scores considered without averaging
- "We report the highest LSAT score to the American Bar Association and other organizations. However, all scores (not averaged) will be considered in the admissions review process. If there is a significant discrepancy in your scores (five or more points), we encourage you to submit an addendum in order to put the variance into context for our Admissions Committee.”

Vanderbilt: could not find anything on web site

Cornell: Higher score if at least 3 points higher
-“In general, Cornell Law’s policy is to take the higher score if it is at least 3 points higher than a prior score, but the Admissions Committee invites applicants to submit an addendum to their application explaining the different LSAT scores and why we should take the higher score.”

Northwestern: Highest score


Thanks Cade!

User avatar
Helicio
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: High score diminished by retake?

Postby Helicio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:07 pm

Lol at the Gaia flirting. Her last avatar owned the one she has now.

Anyway, basically take Gaia's advice. I can't give you too much advice since I'm white and not really positive how URM numbers work, but from what I've read on these forums I really do think you should be good to go with a lot if not most of the T14.

The question you need to ask yourself now is if you want HYS as well as maybe Columbia/NYU. If you do, it can't hurt to study a little more for the LSAT and retake. If you can increase your score by just the smallest bit I think you should be golden.

Feel free to PM me if you want to know how I'm studying for the LSAT. I'd be interested to get some advice from you as well since I'm studying now!


Good luck man!




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BobBoblaw, JoshLyman13, maybeman and 5 guests