Poor Diagnostic!

AhoyHoy79
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Poor Diagnostic!

Postby AhoyHoy79 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:55 pm

Well I took my 2nd diagnostic and I was incredibly disappointed in that I scored 5 points LOWER than my first diagnostic. Shoot, if I tell you how low my first diagnostic was, most of you would probably wonder why I'm thinking about law school in the first place.

The good news is that this has reinforced my early notion of going to law school in the first place and I am more than willing and able to redouble my efforts in order to get a higher score when I take it again in October (I'm signed up for the June LSAT). But damn, I have a LOOONG road ahead!

Any advise?

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:59 pm

don't take in june if you are far from where you want to be. study your ass off and take in october. the LSAT is learnable, and most people don't do very well initially.

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mickeyD
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby mickeyD » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:05 pm

If you are sure that you're taking the LSAT again, and don't mind waiting a little longer to apply to law school, then you shouldn't take the June test. From what it sounds like, you plan on putting a lot of time and effort to improve your score- that's great. I don't think, however, that the improvement you're looking for can be achieved in the next 36 days. There's no reason for you to hurt your record by testing before you're ready and let law schools see a score that isn't the best reflection of your abilities.

Spend time on this forum, learn the prep methods that work best for you, and give the October test everything you've got. You'll be glad that you waited a little longer to have one great score on your application.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:07 pm

If the only prep you've done to date is the two tests, you should pull out for June. I have no idea what your diag was, but there are examples of people scoring 20 pts higher after several months of intense study. Follow a good guide - I reccomend Pithypike's - and you can increase your score substantially. I'd be able to tell you more specific strategies if I knew your diag though

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dr123
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby dr123 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:15 pm

A drop from the first diag is pretty common, esp if you're trying to integrate new methods for answering the questions

bp shinners
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby bp shinners » Sun May 01, 2011 5:14 am

What methods have you used to study between the two diagnostics? That would help us see where you're at and recommend a course of study from here.

AhoyHoy79
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby AhoyHoy79 » Sun May 01, 2011 9:52 pm

Thank for the tips guys! Believe me, I am looking to put my best foot forward and giving it all I got. I will amend the date of my LSAT test from June to October. My target date if Fall 2012 so it still works out. Also, I only want to take this test once as one you guys mentioned, you can get penalized for taking it multiple times (i.e. they average out the scores).

I'm currently enrolled in Testmasters. It's been a big help; however, I haven't really mastered a lot of the tricks. I've gone over the lessons but have not done all the homework (I've done very minimal homework to be blunt). I suck at logic games, I've got a good handle on logical reasoning. But logic games is my weakest area (Like I stated earlier, I suck)!!

By the way, my first diagnostic was a 133 and my second was a 127. Yeah, I feel "slightly" better getting that out in the open. Yeah, it's atrocious! :(

acrossthelake
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby acrossthelake » Mon May 02, 2011 1:03 pm

AhoyHoy79 wrote:Thank for the tips guys! Believe me, I am looking to put my best foot forward and giving it all I got. I will amend the date of my LSAT test from June to October. My target date if Fall 2012 so it still works out. Also, I only want to take this test once as one you guys mentioned, you can get penalized for taking it multiple times (i.e. they average out the scores).

I'm currently enrolled in Testmasters. It's been a big help; however, I haven't really mastered a lot of the tricks. I've gone over the lessons but have not done all the homework (I've done very minimal homework to be blunt). I suck at logic games, I've got a good handle on logical reasoning. But logic games is my weakest area (Like I stated earlier, I suck)!!

By the way, my first diagnostic was a 133 and my second was a 127. Yeah, I feel "slightly" better getting that out in the open. Yeah, it's atrocious! :(


Well, where do you want to go? What's your undergrad GPA? I think you might need longer than waiting till October.

flexityflex86
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 02, 2011 1:14 pm

It is common for people to take a slight step back on their 2nd test or at the beginning of their study as they are learning new concepts.

And don't worry. June gives you plenty of time, and it's great you started so early.

Remember in the documentary, "Legally Blonde", Elle Woods went up 36 points in a couple of weeks so you can do it too! Don't stress to much. June is over a month away. 179 or bust!

flexityflex86
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 02, 2011 1:22 pm

All due respect, but if you started at a 133 and aren't committed to studying for hours every day, law school is not right for you.

The assigned homeworks are geared towards the casual test taker who may make a 5 point improvement, but more likely a 2-3 point improvement.

To make real improvements everyone who teachers for these places knows that the homeworks are really just a starting point, and you should be doing full tests (about 3-4 a week) in addition to them for month.

If you're starting with a 133, and want a top law school as being on this forum means you probably do, you clearly need a personality and work ethic you don't have.

Lacking sharpness and lacking a go getting hustling personality is a terrible combination for law school admissions.

In all honesty, I would not bet on you being admitted to a school better than Cooley unless your study habits totally change or you are willing to give me 100:1 odds.

Long term, you would likely have a much better shop making a decent salary at 7/11 where with good performance you can get promoted to manager than you will in law. You can also take the police exam as your 133 mean you should perform above average on the police entrance exam. Just get out now before you turn your lack of potential into a 100k loss.

flexityflex86
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 02, 2011 1:24 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
AhoyHoy79 wrote:Thank for the tips guys! Believe me, I am looking to put my best foot forward and giving it all I got. I will amend the date of my LSAT test from June to October. My target date if Fall 2012 so it still works out. Also, I only want to take this test once as one you guys mentioned, you can get penalized for taking it multiple times (i.e. they average out the scores).

I'm currently enrolled in Testmasters. It's been a big help; however, I haven't really mastered a lot of the tricks. I've gone over the lessons but have not done all the homework (I've done very minimal homework to be blunt). I suck at logic games, I've got a good handle on logical reasoning. But logic games is my weakest area (Like I stated earlier, I suck)!!

By the way, my first diagnostic was a 133 and my second was a 127. Yeah, I feel "slightly" better getting that out in the open. Yeah, it's atrocious! :(


Well, where do you want to go? What's your undergrad GPA? I think you might need longer than waiting till October.

MOD: You are in Harvard. This is really your advice?

I'm sure your diagnostic was a 133, right? ;-) I bet if I added Kate Winslet's age to your score, I still would be below your diag.

acrossthelake
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby acrossthelake » Mon May 02, 2011 2:08 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:MOD: You are in Harvard. This is really your advice?

I'm sure your diagnostic was a 133, right? ;-) I bet if I added Kate Winslet's age to your score, I still would be below your diag.


I'm going easy on the poster instead of guns a blazing. I personally think if one's diag is that low then it's unlikely one will get an LSAT high enough to get into a school good enough to justify going. And no, my diagnostic was certainly higher. I speak from other people's experiences, not my own, but 10-15 pts is a typical gain if one puts in proper effort. I've heard stories on TLS of people raising it by 30ish, but they all put in a solid year of studying and didn't do much else but study. I'm curious as to how they fared in law school.

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glewz
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby glewz » Mon May 02, 2011 2:13 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:To make real improvements everyone who teachers for these places knows that the homeworks are really just a starting point, and you should be doing full tests (about 3-4 a week) in addition to them for month.


I agree with other points, but not the point about 3-4 full tests per week...

Anyways, it's common for people to fluctuate a few points on the 2nd diagnostic - for me, I went down 3 points and was pretty bummed out. I continued to study super hard & improved dramatically by the 3rd diagnostic test (high 170s).

That said, you need to study a ton because the improvement has to happen somewhere. Bare min: 5 hrs/day

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glewz
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby glewz » Mon May 02, 2011 2:15 pm

acrossthelake wrote:but 10-15 pts is a typical gain if one puts in proper effort.


OP, I hope you take away from this thread that you need to work a lot from here on out, but at the same time, don't let your 2nd diagnostic cripple your motivation/mentality.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby crumpetsandtea » Mon May 02, 2011 2:20 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:It is common for people to take a slight step back on their 2nd test or at the beginning of their study as they are learning new concepts.

And don't worry. June gives you plenty of time, and it's great you started so early.

Remember in the documentary, "Legally Blonde", Elle Woods went up 36 points in a couple of weeks so you can do it too! Don't stress to much. June is over a month away. 179 or bust!


flexityflex86 wrote:All due respect, but if you started at a 133 and aren't committed to studying for hours every day, law school is not right for you.

The assigned homeworks are geared towards the casual test taker who may make a 5 point improvement, but more likely a 2-3 point improvement.

To make real improvements everyone who teachers for these places knows that the homeworks are really just a starting point, and you should be doing full tests (about 3-4 a week) in addition to them for month.

If you're starting with a 133, and want a top law school as being on this forum means you probably do, you clearly need a personality and work ethic you don't have.

Lacking sharpness and lacking a go getting hustling personality is a terrible combination for law school admissions.

In all honesty, I would not bet on you being admitted to a school better than Cooley unless your study habits totally change or you are willing to give me 100:1 odds.

Long term, you would likely have a much better shop making a decent salary at 7/11 where with good performance you can get promoted to manager than you will in law. You can also take the police exam as your 133 mean you should perform above average on the police entrance exam. Just get out now before you turn your lack of potential into a 100k loss.


flexityflex86 wrote:MOD: You are in Harvard. This is really your advice?

I'm sure your diagnostic was a 133, right? ;-) I bet if I added Kate Winslet's age to your score, I still would be below your diag.


......wtf lol

1) RE: bolded -- what kind of schizo behavior is this
2) RE: ATL's response -- it's important to know OP's GPA to see if it's worth trying for a higher score at all. If he's got a 2.8 and 133 diag, he's not in a good situation. If he's got a 3.9/133, then if he manages to bring it up (with a LOT of hard work) he still has some good options open to him. She wasn't dispensing advice, she was trying to get a better idea of how to help him.
3) RE: OP's post -- you're definitely not ready for the June test, if you're shooting for 160 or better. It will take a LOT of hard work and you should be ready to devote your life to it, basically. Get your hands on the Powerscore Bibles, work through all of them, and then take another diagnostic. IF you are still scoring in the 130s and haven't seen ANY improvement, then I would personally re-consider taking the test.

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northwood
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 2:23 pm

I had a score increase of 18 points from my diagnostic to the october exam. It can be done- but you need to dedicate yourself to this. For me that meant that instead of going out- i worked and then spent my free time working on the LSAT- and keeping my chemical intake to a minimum ( no week long benders)I took a course to get some basic fundamentals. If you really want to do this- then you need to spend at least 2-3 hours a night 6 nights a week on prep without any outside distractions ( that means no phone, no internet, no snacks- just you and your prep materials. It took me a good 4 months to prep- and in the beginning, my scaled score went down as i spent time focusing on accuracy and not worrying so much about speed. ( I did a prep test 2 weeks in just to see how i was doing- I focused on accuracy and not so much as final score- so while my scaled score went down- my accuracy on the questions i spent time doing ( and not guessing) went up.) Maybe if I spent more time i could have done better, but i was not in a position to quit my full time job while getting ready. Its all about your determination. While this test is learnable, you have to keep in mind that unless you are willing to spend years dedicating yourself to lsat study- chances are you will hit a ceiling.

Reschedule the lsat for october. work on individual section work now- and dont take another prep test until you have seen and practiced all of the LR question types and at least half of the game types.

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glewz
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby glewz » Mon May 02, 2011 2:25 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:3) RE: OP's post -- you're definitely not ready for the June test, if you're shooting for 160 or better. It will take a LOT of hard work and you should be ready to devote your life to it, basically. Get your hands on the Powerscore Bibles, work through all of them, and then take another diagnostic. IF you are still scoring in the 130s and haven't seen ANY improvement, then I would personally re-consider taking the test.


OP already has testmasters, PS bibles would be repetitive and probably detrimental given that OP is already making attempts to learn a set of methods.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby yngblkgifted » Mon May 02, 2011 2:32 pm

my first diagnostic was a 133 and my second was a 127
Therefore I have

enrolled in Testmasters
and during the class,

I've done very minimal homework to be blunt
but I think


I've got a good handle on logical reasoning


Hmmmm.... Apparently you don't.

flexityflex86
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:33 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:It is common for people to take a slight step back on their 2nd test or at the beginning of their study as they are learning new concepts.

And don't worry. June gives you plenty of time, and it's great you started so early.

Remember in the documentary, "Legally Blonde", Elle Woods went up 36 points in a couple of weeks so you can do it too! Don't stress to much. June is over a month away. 179 or bust!


flexityflex86 wrote:All due respect, but if you started at a 133 and aren't committed to studying for hours every day, law school is not right for you.

The assigned homeworks are geared towards the casual test taker who may make a 5 point improvement, but more likely a 2-3 point improvement.

To make real improvements everyone who teachers for these places knows that the homeworks are really just a starting point, and you should be doing full tests (about 3-4 a week) in addition to them for month.

If you're starting with a 133, and want a top law school as being on this forum means you probably do, you clearly need a personality and work ethic you don't have.

Lacking sharpness and lacking a go getting hustling personality is a terrible combination for law school admissions.

In all honesty, I would not bet on you being admitted to a school better than Cooley unless your study habits totally change or you are willing to give me 100:1 odds.

Long term, you would likely have a much better shop making a decent salary at 7/11 where with good performance you can get promoted to manager than you will in law. You can also take the police exam as your 133 mean you should perform above average on the police entrance exam. Just get out now before you turn your lack of potential into a 100k loss.


flexityflex86 wrote:MOD: You are in Harvard. This is really your advice?

I'm sure your diagnostic was a 133, right? ;-) I bet if I added Kate Winslet's age to your score, I still would be below your diag.


......wtf lol

1) RE: bolded -- what kind of schizo behavior is this
2) RE: ATL's response -- it's important to know OP's GPA to see if it's worth trying for a higher score at all. If he's got a 2.8 and 133 diag, he's not in a good situation. If he's got a 3.9/133, then if he manages to bring it up (with a LOT of hard work) he still has some good options open to him. She wasn't dispensing advice, she was trying to get a better idea of how to help him.
3) RE: OP's post -- you're definitely not ready for the June test, if you're shooting for 160 or better. It will take a LOT of hard work and you should be ready to devote your life to it, basically. Get your hands on the Powerscore Bibles, work through all of them, and then take another diagnostic. IF you are still scoring in the 130s and haven't seen ANY improvement, then I would personally re-consider taking the test.

i am honest.

would u bet on OP improving 20 points by June when he went down 6, and doesn't even do the course homework? that is like betting on the royals to win the world series!!!!!!

let's keep in touch with OP. I'll bet you $100, and give you 1000:1 odds he doesn't improve 20 points by june.

crumpet: do you not know sarcasm? how will you survive in law if you can't understand sarcasm? legally blonde, a documentary, really? oh, and if i was being serious about legally blonde being a documentary and OP's 179 then very unenthusiastic, this would be a sign of being bi-polar, not schitzo. fortunately, i am completely normal and merely in truth just kind of a big asshole. but i am an honest, forthcoming and experienced asshole. there is no way OP is going to go to law school unless he changes his whole perspective. i have seen people like OP time and time again fail then become cynical, lose confidence and assume the problem is law school and not them when our country gives people like OP every opportunity to achieve (you get 3 tries at the LSAT, and get to take it if you're rich or poor).

hopefully OP takes what i say as a challenge, and makes the personality and work ethic changes necessary to achieve. you are encouraging his perspective, "I have a 127 now - shooting for t-14. I guess I can study casually till October, and be good for a 170." this is like me saying i can practice foul shots sporadically fr a few months, and beat LeBron James in a pick up game. again, i hope OP takes what i say as a challenge and is motivated, but betting man that i am, i predict he will not man up and consequently fail.
Last edited by flexityflex86 on Mon May 02, 2011 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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northwood
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 2:34 pm

OP if you really want to maximize your learning potential from the class- you need to make sure to do the homework. otherwise you are wasting your time, money, and hopes.

flexityflex86
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:36 pm

northwood wrote:OP if you really want to maximize your learning potential from the class- you need to make sure to do the homework. otherwise you are wasting your time, money, and hopes.

the homework isn't enough for these classes.

normally they have a "score improvement guarantee", and if students complete all the homework, they have a 99% chance of improving at least 1 point. this is really the corporate philosophy.

i never met anyone who improved >10 points through a course just by doing the homework, and no additional work.

people on TLS spend 3-8 hours a day prepping for the LSAT, and most start in the mid 150s-mid 160s. OP spends an hour or two a week, and started at a 133. C'mon.

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glewz
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby glewz » Mon May 02, 2011 2:36 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
my first diagnostic was a 133 and my second was a 127
Therefore I have
enrolled in Testmasters
and during the class,
I've done very minimal homework to be blunt
but I think
I've got a good handle on logical reasoning

Hmmmm.... Apparently you don't.


I didn't see OP's post, which said "I've done very minimal homework to be blunt."

Now that I do...OP should probably reschedule for October. All the lessons before Diag 2 were pretty important I'm sure, so unless OP can cram a ton, it's not gonna be pretty.

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glewz
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby glewz » Mon May 02, 2011 2:40 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
northwood wrote:OP if you really want to maximize your learning potential from the class- you need to make sure to do the homework. otherwise you are wasting your time, money, and hopes.

the homework isn't enough for these classes.

normally they have a "score improvement guarantee", and if students complete all the homework, they have a 99% chance of improving at least 1 point. this is really the corporate philosophy.

i never met anyone who improved >10 points through a course just by doing the homework, and no additional work.

people on TLS spend 3-8 hours a day prepping for the LSAT, and most start in the mid 150s-mid 160s. OP spends an hour or two a week, and started at a 133. C'mon.


the homework is enough + the prep tests/sections available online through TM's website. have you seen how much homework there is?

And I am a person who improved >10 pts through the course just by doing homework (and the additional tests, which I did in the last 2 weeks before my actual test - sorted out my timing issues)

A good friend of mine who 179ed it did the same. And another friend of mine 168ed it (+25 pts)

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby crumpetsandtea » Mon May 02, 2011 2:50 pm

glewz wrote:OP already has testmasters, PS bibles would be repetitive and probably detrimental given that OP is already making attempts to learn a set of methods.

This is simply NOT true. When I first took the test, I took the TM class, sort of bulshitted through it, and ended up getting the same score the day of as I did on my first diagnostic (aka: NO improvement). I am re-taking now, and when I was studying I used the PS Bibles. The LR Bible increased my average LR score from -3/5 to -1/-2. SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT.

To qualify this statement: I started out with a 168, so our situations are slightly different. Nevertheless, I don't think it's repetitive OR detrimental to invest in the bibles. The most important part of this whole thing is that YOU MUST PUT IN WORK, OP. Regardless of your diagnostic score, you will see NOTHING positive happen if you don't put in the work. My first time around, I had 0 improvement because I didn't work at all. Now, I'm putting in about 5x the work I did the first time, and my PT average has jumped significantly (I'd say 5-6 points, probably--I was averaging a little lower than my cold diagnostic my first time around).

flexityflex86 wrote:would u bet on OP improving 20 points by June when he went down 6, and doesn't even do the course homework? that is like betting on the royals to win the world series!!!!!!

I'm not 'betting' on anything. It's true that the OP has things stacked significantly against him. My comments to your bolded statements were mainly LOL-ing at the fact that you contradicted yourself in 2 separate posts. I do know people who improved their score 20 pts or so, so it's not impossible. However, OP, it is VERY HARD, and if you're not willing to buckle down and NOT ONLY do the homework BUT ALSO self-study like it's your job, then you are not going to see improvement.

TL;DR--Put in more hours or don't bother.

acrossthelake
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Re: Poor Diagnostic!

Postby acrossthelake » Mon May 02, 2011 2:52 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:However, OP, it is VERY HARD, and if you're not willing to buckle down and NOT ONLY do the homework BUT ALSO self-study like it's your job, then you are not going to see improvement.

TL;DR--Put in more hours or don't bother.


Yeah, this.

I mean, the LSAT is easy compared to law school. If you can't be bothered to put in the proper effort for the LSAT, you aren't going to cut it in law school.




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