Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

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hkjj1234
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Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby hkjj1234 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:37 pm

Can someone help me out diagram q21 of s1 for pt40? The question about pizzerias and the answer?

Q:
RRR -> P
Therefore, P -> U

A:
RRR -> U

What am I doing wrong here?

Thanks in advance.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:54 pm

If you post the whole question, I'll see what I can do

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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby Manhattan LSAT Noah » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:35 am

oops, wrong explanation - let me re-read

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:39 pm

Manhattan LSAT Noah wrote:oops, wrong explanation - let me re-read

He's smarter than me. PM him, but I'll help if you both get stumped

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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby Manhattan LSAT Noah » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:16 pm

More obsessive, not smarter. :) But, you have a cooler avatar, Jammaster J. That's from Scrubs, right?

I work as hard as possible to keep things simple. Here's my way of approaching this problem:

Pizzerias only ones that get data (+ Pizzerias can easily ID customers with this data) --> Pizzerials utilitze direct mail more effectively than other restaurants

We're looking for a sufficient assumption to completely fill the gap. So, what's the gap? There's a couple of fishy issues (anchovies?) about how pizzerias are the only ones that can get the data, but the argument doesn't say they're the only ones that can ID customers. Maybe other restaurants can ID customers through another means? Another gap I noticed is whether the pizzerias will actually use that data to ID customers (the stimulus says they can, but does it mean they do?). But both of those gaps are within the premise, we want a gap that includes the conclusion. And there is one: who says that the data (and gaining the ability to ID customers) helps make direct mailings more effective? There's a big jump there. With sufficient assumption questions, we can expect the answer to play on a large gap and fill it fully.

The answer, (E), addresses that final gap in such a way to ensure that pizzerias are more effective at direct mailings. If we assume that restaurants that collect the data regularly are always more effective, we know that pizzerias are more effective, since they're the only ones that regularly collect the data! (E) even seals up the issue about whether the restaurants actually will use the data because "they always utilize it more effectively.."

(A) is tempting! However, even if the other restaurants can't easily ID the customers, perhaps they CAN do it (but with some extra effort). And, more importantly, perhaps these other restaurants can still do effective direct mailings. This doesn't connect to the conclusion.

(B) is also tempting! It seems to say that direct mailings can only be done by pizzerias. But it doesn't say that. It says that direct mailings require some data - and perhaps those other restaurants have some data (they just don't routinely collect the data).

(C) is initially suspcious since it hinges on something "generally requiring," but it's definitely wrong since it connects data and IDing customers, and doesn't connect to the conclusion about direct mailings. We already know that the pizzerias can ID the customers easily with the data, and, while ruling out other ways of IDing customers would be good, (C) doesn't do it because it says that IDing customers generally requires something, (and even if (C) did establish that only pizzerias can ID customers, we still wouldn't know IDing would make direct mailing mroe effective).

(D) is out of scope. We're not concerned with whether the direct mailing is beneficial. We want to know if pizzerias can do them more effectively.

let me think about the formal approach for a sec. I guess my approach assumes pizza --> data. Let me consider why that's true.

Edit - I'm back. This is tricky. i had to call in the big geeks that I work with. It seems to be that the LSAT is considering this to be the logic:

P: MOST pizzerias record data, and no other restaurants do
A (E): those that record data are always more effective at dmmarketing
C: Pizzerias as a whole are better than other groups of restaurants at utilizing dmmarketing.

The tricky part is that the initial sentence suggests that not only are restaurants the only ones that do it (Data --> Pizza), but that most (and here, the word "routinely" seems to get a specific interpretation) of them do it (Pizza (most) --> Data).

This is why I try to stay clear of automatic interpretations of LR statements!

I hope that helps.

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hkjj1234
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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby hkjj1234 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:31 pm

Manhattan LSAT Noah wrote:let me think about the formal approach for a sec. I guess my approach assumes pizza --> data. Let me consider why that's true.

Edit - I'm back. This is tricky. i had to call in the big geeks that I work with. It seems to be that the LSAT is considering this to be the logic:

P: MOST pizzerias record data, and no other restaurants do
A (E): those that record data are always more effective at dmmarketing
C: Pizzerias as a whole are better than other groups of restaurants at utilizing dmmarketing.

The tricky part is that the initial sentence suggests that not only are restaurants the only ones that do it (Data --> Pizza), but that most (and here, the word "routinely" seems to get a specific interpretation) of them do it (Pizza (most) --> Data).


Manhattan LSAT Noah,

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

But I don't understand where the "most" you're referring to came from.

This is how I diagrammed the problem:
P: Data recording restaurants --> Pizzerias :shock:
A(E): Data recording restaurants --> Utilize DMM best
C: Pizzerias --> Utilize DMM best

I'm assuming that the LSAT is somehow interpreting "P" as "Pizzerias --> Data recording restaurants" b/c all the other answer choices are just wrong; but I just can't see how it's doing it. :(

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun May 01, 2011 4:03 pm

Yeah, it's Ted after he rode in Kelso's convertible

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Re: Can someone help me diagram pt40 s1 q21? (LR pizzeria Q)

Postby Manhattan LSAT Noah » Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am

hkjj1234 wrote:
Manhattan LSAT Noah wrote:The tricky part is that the initial sentence suggests that not only are restaurants the only ones that do it (Data --> Pizza), but that most (and here, the word "routinely" seems to get a specific interpretation) of them do it (Pizza (most) --> Data).


I'm assuming that the LSAT is somehow interpreting "P" as "Pizzerias --> Data recording restaurants" b/c all the other answer choices are just wrong; but I just can't see how it's doing it. :(


I know, it's really annoying! As I mentioned above, the LSAT seems to be using the phrase including "routinely" here to mean that most restaurants do it. (as opposed to the idea that individual restaurants do it frequently). Really not cool, in my opinion.

Make sense (albeit annoyingly)?




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