What does my untimed score tell me?

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gaud
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What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby gaud » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:09 pm

Any ideas?

My range through the past 15 tests I've taken is (160-168), average being 165 with some decimals.

Took an untimed today and FINALLY got a 170, but what exactly does the untimed tell me about my scores? Ceiling?

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Icculus
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby Icculus » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:11 pm

It tells you what score you can get on an untimed test...essentially it tells you nothing.

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kapital98
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:18 pm

It's okay to take tests untimed if your still getting the feel of the test. Make sure you know all the rules before you race for time.

HOWEVER, time is running out before the June test and you should start taking strictly timed tests as soon as possible. If you need extra help do additional untimed sections apart from your time tests.

The only reason I scored my lowly 162 was because I fell apart on the logic games both times I took the test. The reason: I didn't have time. After failing one game I stumbled into the next 3. It definitely cost me at least 2-3 points (if not 4-5...)

Lesson: Start taking timed tests if you want anything close to a 170 come test day.

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kapital98
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:19 pm

P.S. Start doing 5 sections too. If your not used to 5 sections in one sitting you will be exhausted. You do not want to limp to the finish.

dakatz
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby dakatz » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:19 pm

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but an untimed score is largely meaningless. I could run a marathon easily if I had all the time in the world to do so. The LSAT isn't just a test of how much you know. It is a test of how fast you can spew it back. I'm not saying your untimed scores won't carry over, but an untimed score in itself isn't really indicative of anything. The time crunch is what makes the test difficult for most people.

That being said, untimed testing is most certainly a way to at least get yourself started and comfortable with the material. You obviously went a bit overboard with 15 untimed tests, but at least you got phase one down, in that you are learning the material. But from now on, do EVERYTHING timed. Everything should be a time crunch that makes you feel the fire of the clock burning beneath you. Time it by the page, by the section, by the individual question if you want. The more you do this, the less overwhelming it will feel.

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gaud
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby gaud » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:22 pm

LOL i knew i should have clarified. Today's 170 was my first untimed test EVER. The average of 165 is from about 15 TIMED 5-section tests (38-52).

I just took a light day and decided to see how I could do with unlimited time to see how much of a change it made.

dakatz
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby dakatz » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:26 pm

gaud wrote:LOL i knew i should have clarified. Today's 170 was my first untimed test EVER. The average of 165 is from about 15 TIMED 5-section tests (38-52).

I just took a light day and decided to see how I could do with unlimited time to see how much of a change it made.


That makes much more sense. Principle is still the same though. It shows that you accomplished the first step of learning the material. What I would do is look at your work on that untimed test. How can you speed up what you did? How can you make that work more concise? You obviously have to find ways to incorporate that work into the timed setting. There will be nothing groundbreaking or earthshattering here. It is ALL in the details and the tiny little things that shave off seconds from your time.

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gaud
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby gaud » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:29 pm

dakatz wrote:
gaud wrote:LOL i knew i should have clarified. Today's 170 was my first untimed test EVER. The average of 165 is from about 15 TIMED 5-section tests (38-52).

I just took a light day and decided to see how I could do with unlimited time to see how much of a change it made.


That makes much more sense. Principle is still the same though. It shows that you accomplished the first step of learning the material. What I would do is look at your work on that untimed test. How can you speed up what you did? How can you make that work more concise? You obviously have to find ways to incorporate that work into the timed setting. There will be nothing groundbreaking or earthshattering here. It is ALL in the details and the tiny little things that shave off seconds from your time.



K, gotcha. Thank you

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Veyron
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby Veyron » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:05 am

Nada, zip, zero. Anyone should be able to hit a 180 with unlimited time. The fact that you aren't even close should concern you.

Tamponymous
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby Tamponymous » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:18 am

Glad to hear that you saw some results by taking it untimed! Hopefully you didn't take too much longer than the standard time for the test. I wholly disagree that an untimed score is completely meaningless because look - you still didn't get a 180. Someone who never took the LSAT before and has no idea how to interpret sufficient/necessary conditions will not do well - regardless of timing. The LSAT tests both speed and knowledge (even if it's mostly speed), and you are probably still lacking complete mastery of some of the concepts (though you are close).

I think what the score means - especially given your previous plateau around 165 - is that some of the mistakes you were making before were due to rushing - speed came at the cost of accuracy. Also, it means there are still ~10 questions that had significant trouble with - since you had plenty of time to do your best on them. Check if there were specific types of questions that gave you problems - or if those were careless mistakes.

I think you should see linear progress if you continue to balance timed with untimed practice. Do timed sections to speed up your thinking, and do untimed sections to clarify your thinking. Warm up with untimed sections and untimed review of question types. Then later in the day take timed PTs to solidify your understanding.

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mac35352
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby mac35352 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:20 am

Veyron wrote:Nada, zip, zero. Anyone should be able to hit a 180 with unlimited time. The fact that you aren't even close should concern you.

LOL.

FiveSermon
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby FiveSermon » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:20 am

Absolutely nothing

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jack duluoz
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby jack duluoz » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:26 am

It should tell you that your score would be higher if the test wasn't timed.

09042014
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:31 am

Untimed but taken at a reasonable pace, say 40 minutes instead of 35, is probably a good guess of where you'd end up if you master the timing of the test.

If you are just brute forcing all the LG games it tells you absolutely nothing.

barnum
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby barnum » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:25 am

I disagree with most of the posters. Untimed tests can tell you quite a bit. First off, what you still get wrong given no time restrictions is far more likely to point to concepts tested on the LSAT that you don't still fully understand. When you take timed tests, it is harder to know whether your errors are concept based or pressure and time based. Taking untimed eliminates the second variable.

Also, untimed tests can tell you quite a bit about how you would score on a timed test. Also, we all presumably score worse timed versus untimed, but one of the questions is does time effect you more than another test taker of reasonably similar LSAT skills. If so, then you need to work on time more. If you are effected the same as everybody else, then you need to work on your skills more. At my company we did a bit of an informal study where we gave everybody a full four section LSAT they hadn't seen and told them they should do it completely untimed. Take a week or two to get it done. Don't understand a question today; come back to it tomorrow, etc. We call it the 180 challenge. Given all the time you need, can you get a 180? First off, despite what one poster said, the answer for most people is no. We give them this challenge closer to the end of the course, when we are also offering weekly timed practice tests. We then charted the results of their untimed tests next to the scores they received on their timed 5 section scored exams to see if there were any correlations or conclusions we could draw. For the vast majority of people, there was absolutely a relationship between their timed and untimed scores. Although, we charted it out more specifically than this, we found roughly that the number of mistakes a test-taker makes untimed, is about half the number of mistakes they will make timed. For example, a test taker that makes 8 errors untimed (if we use the June 07 scale this would be a 170), we would see make about 16 errors when timed (using the same scale this would be a 163). Someone who gets 20 wrong untimed (a score of 161), we would expect to see about 40 errors timed (a score of 150). Obviously, after a point this no longer held (if you got 50 wrong untimed, you would not get 100 wrong timed).

barnum
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby barnum » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:45 am

Now with this knowledge in hand, we can understand that untimed practice is very important. A lot of my students will be working on their homework and think they are doing great because they get only 1 out of every five LR questions they do wrong. “I get most of my homework correct,” they tell me, “why are my scores not going up?” The reality is that 1 wrong out of 5 is a 20% error rate. I would only expect that to put someone in the range of a 150. Even 1 out of every 10 wrong in your homework only puts you on track for the low 160s. If you want to score consistently in the 170s, you need to get only about 1 out of every 20 questions you do untimed incorrect. That means if you did 3 reading comp passages, two passages need to be perfect and 1 passage can have at most 1 error.
This is also useful knowledge for the studiers who are always worried about taking a timed test every other day (or every day as some people on this board like to do). “How else will I know how I am scoring?” The reality is that how you do in your untimed practice, will for most people be a reliable predictor of how they do once they are under the pressure of a timed test. This means that you don’t need to waste hours and hours taking timed practice tests while not making any attempts to correct inadequacies in your LSAT understanding, but could instead use those hours focusing on how to actually get better at LSAT concepts.

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thecilent
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby thecilent » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:54 am

Lol @ all the posters saying untimed doesn't mean anything.

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incompetentia
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Re: What does my untimed score tell me?

Postby incompetentia » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:01 am

Untimed practice is useful; an untimed score, less so.


Much more important than the score itself are the types of questions you miss on the untimed test AS WELL AS the types of questions you didn't that you would miss on a timed test. This should be able to focus your areas of study slightly more.




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