Should I retake with a 175? :/

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JazzOne
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:32 pm

rso11 wrote:Dude, it's possible you might get higher, but with that score you don't NEED to get higher. You know? Especially if your GPA is higher than like, a 2.0. Yeesh. This forum makes everyone lose all sense of perspective.

Some people are extremely competitive. Why is that perspective "lost"?

PhiloLogicGames
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby PhiloLogicGames » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:37 pm

Hm. All respect, but this question's a bit silly.

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JazzOne
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:39 pm

PhiloLogicGames wrote:Hm. All respect, but this question's a bit silly.

And why is that?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:49 pm

JazzOne wrote:
PhiloLogicGames wrote:Hm. All respect, but this question's a bit silly.

And why is that?


I agree -- i dont think this is that silly of a question, given the context

it might initially seem that way, but i think most ppl who are discounting it just have not read the OP or the subsequent responses (though i guess they imagine skimming the title is more than enough to justify a post)

Lasker
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby Lasker » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:52 pm

How can you say they have a "soft floor" at 3.8 if over 25% of their students are under that?

Obviously it would be better to be over 3.8, but "floor" seems like too strong a word.

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JazzOne
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:52 pm

Lasker wrote:How can you say they have a "soft floor" at 3.8 if over 25% of their students are under that?

Obviously it would be better to be over 3.8, but "floor" seems like too strong a word.

URMs?

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Shooter
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby Shooter » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:57 pm

I could be totally wrong, but it's my personal opinion that some people on this thread are overreacting when they say that you have no chance at HYS. People get in all the time with numbers lower than yours, they just don't report their cycles on LSN. Seriously, scoring 175 on the LSAT is no joke. It's an astronomically high score. Harvard, Yale and Stanford will all take notice.

Being above one median and below the other, you have as good a shot as almost anyone else.

(Maybe consider going to G'Town with $$ if you're into public policy? Your Harvard undergrad will provide all the prestige you could ever want, and being in Washington can only help your career. I know it's not the "best" law school, but it's just a thought - and it worked for Chris Van Hollen.)

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kazu
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby kazu » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Lasker wrote:How can you say they have a "soft floor" at 3.8 if over 25% of their students are under that?

Obviously it would be better to be over 3.8, but "floor" seems like too strong a word.

According to LSN and TLS HLS has a "soft" floor at 3.8, and a "hard" floor at 3.7. People in the 3.7~3.8 range who get accepted have other things going for them in their application, such as URM status, Ivy UG, exceptional softs (by H's standards), etc., as well as a 175+ LSAT. It seems that under 3.7, only URMs get accepted.

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JazzOne
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Shooter wrote:I could be totally wrong, but it's my personal opinion that some people on this thread are overreacting when they say that you have no chance at HYS. People get in all the time with numbers lower than yours, they just don't report their cycles on LSN. Seriously, scoring 175 on the LSAT is no joke. It's an astronomically high score. Harvard, Yale and Stanford will all take notice.

Being above one median and below the other, you have as good a shot as almost anyone else.

(Maybe consider going to G'Town with $$ if you're into public policy? Your Harvard undergrad will provide all the prestige you could ever want, and being in Washington can only help your career. I know it's not the "best" law school, but it's just a thought - and it worked for Chris Van Hollen.)

I was going to post something similar, but I didn't want to get all preachy. However, OP should realize that his accomplishments are nothing to scoff at even if he misses HYS. He's obviously smart and driven, and with those qualities, success can be had below HYS. It's only in the super competitive world of law that someone as successful as OP would be down on his prospects.

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Ragged
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby Ragged » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:32 pm

lackadaisy wrote:
Ragged wrote:EDIT: You also have a bullshit major so no love there.


Not exactly. I'm in an honors concentration with 13 required courses (and a 120-page thesis) who has taken a full semester in graduate-level coursework. I understand your point, and I'm glad to hear a confirmation of my impulse to retake, but I really hate being told what I've chosen to study is "bullshit."


I was implying that adcomms look more linietly on low GPA from people with tough majors. People... not you.

And also your major is utter billshit. Go find a job with it and then tell me it's not. I know plenty of Econ majors who now enjoy wonderful careers at Starbucks. It's almost as bad as Philosophy.

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98234872348
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:43 pm

JazzOne wrote:I was going to post something similar, but I didn't want to get all preachy. However, OP should realize that his accomplishments are nothing to scoff at even if he misses HYS. He's obviously smart and driven, and with those qualities, success can be had below HYS. It's only in the super competitive world of law that someone as successful as OP would be down on his prospects.

lackadaisy wrote:Basic stats: GPA: 3.7 @ Harvard (Sociology & Economics), F, Asian-American

JazzOne wrote:Nice reading

Sorry, had to. :twisted:

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JazzOne
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:00 pm

mistergoft wrote:
JazzOne wrote:I was going to post something similar, but I didn't want to get all preachy. However, OP should realize that his accomplishments are nothing to scoff at even if he misses HYS. He's obviously smart and driven, and with those qualities, success can be had below HYS. It's only in the super competitive world of law that someone as successful as OP would be down on his prospects.

lackadaisy wrote:Basic stats: GPA: 3.7 @ Harvard (Sociology & Economics), F, Asian-American

JazzOne wrote:Nice reading

Sorry, had to. :twisted:

OK fine, but her gender wasn't central to the advice OP was seeking.

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St.Remy
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby St.Remy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:45 pm

Shooter wrote:I could be totally wrong, but it's my personal opinion that some people on this thread are overreacting when they say that you have no chance at HYS. People get in all the time with numbers lower than yours, they just don't report their cycles on LSN. Seriously, scoring 175 on the LSAT is no joke. It's an astronomically high score. Harvard, Yale and Stanford will all take notice.

Being above one median and below the other, you have as good a shot as almost anyone else.


I don't think that OP's chances are being underestimated at all. I have a 3.7x/175 and I haven't gotten a JR1 from Harvard, much less an offer of acceptance. My expectations for Yale or Stanford are minimal as well. Granted I'm not a Harvard undergrad, which in this case can make a lot of difference, but a standard 3.7/175 probably has about a 1/50 chance at cracking HYS. You need something more, like URM status, interesting WE, game changing soft, etc. to get a top 3 school with those numbers.

To OP, I struggled a bit with this question too, as I think being above Harvard and Yale's 75th LSAT mark might make a difference. I decided against retaking, but that is because I had done a decent bit of prep and was not confident I could get a significantly higher score on a second test (significantly higher being 178+). It sounds like you have done very little prep though, so a 178+ might be more attainable for you. Especially if you are HYS or bust I would recommend a retake, though even if you pull a 180 an acceptance to HYS would not be guaranteed. I would say that the odds of a 3.7/180 being admitted are about even, but that's just my gut. Regardless, you've gotten an LSAT score you can be proud of, and would have your choice among some top schools if you decided to pursue law school. Good luck!

lackadaisy
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby lackadaisy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:08 pm

Shooter wrote:(Maybe consider going to G'Town with $$ if you're into public policy? Your Harvard undergrad will provide all the prestige you could ever want, and being in Washington can only help your career. I know it's not the "best" law school, but it's just a thought - and it worked for Chris Van Hollen.)


I've actually been considering that -- thanks for the reminder. Georgetown offered me a fee waiver so I assumed it would be a possible backup. Do you have any thoughts on where I'd find their stats on public sector career placement, esp. so I could look at it in comparison to HLS (where I assume I'd have the best shot)?

Ragged wrote:And also your major is utter billshit. Go find a job with it and then tell me it's not. I know plenty of Econ majors who now enjoy wonderful careers at Starbucks. It's almost as bad as Philosophy.


At full risk of sounding like an Ivy tool, I'd say that's probably because of your undergraduate institution. As another example, "business" is a joke major at many schools; you'd be a dolt to argue the same of UPenn Wharton. My job prospects are fine (by which I mean I have a job lined up) and so are those of my classmates in economics -- most of them are ending up in finance (100k-120k), consulting (85k), & econ research (40k-60k) positions out of UG. This -- and not arrogance or desperate attachment to prestige -- is why I'm limiting myself to top law schools. Okay, formally recusing myself from further discussion of this because I don't want to derail my own thread.

kazu wrote:According to LSN and TLS HLS has a "soft" floor at 3.8, and a "hard" floor at 3.7. People in the 3.7~3.8 range who get accepted have other things going for them in their application, such as URM status, Ivy UG, exceptional softs (by H's standards), etc., as well as a 175+ LSAT. It seems that under 3.7, only URMs get accepted.


I know someone (not URM, non-Ivy UG) who got in from waitlist under the "hard" floor straight out of college -- he does have higher LSATs though. Which leads to the question: what would these "exceptional softs" be? I'm no Rhodes Scholar, but assuming I have fairly rigorous (or 'prestigious') work experience and write an prize-winning thesis (this hasn't happened yet, obviously), can I expect that to make up for my GPA? IIRC, 'softs' and prizes tend to make up for GPA instead of LSAT, right?

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby kazu » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:17 pm

lackadaisy wrote:
kazu wrote:According to LSN and TLS HLS has a "soft" floor at 3.8, and a "hard" floor at 3.7. People in the 3.7~3.8 range who get accepted have other things going for them in their application, such as URM status, Ivy UG, exceptional softs (by H's standards), etc., as well as a 175+ LSAT. It seems that under 3.7, only URMs get accepted.


I know someone (not URM, non-Ivy UG) who got in from waitlist under the "hard" floor straight out of college -- he does have higher LSATs though. Which leads to the question: what would these "exceptional softs" be? I'm no Rhodes Scholar, but assuming I have fairly rigorous (or 'prestigious') work experience and write an prize-winning thesis (this hasn't happened yet, obviously), can I expect that to make up for my GPA? IIRC, 'softs' and prizes tend to make up for GPA instead of LSAT, right?

Can I ask when this person got accepted? The "hard" floor has been fairly recent, as in the past couple of years - JR, the new admissions dean, seems to weigh GPAs much more heavily than TS, the previous dean.

Remarkable softs are highly debatable so I'm going to let someone else who hopefully knows more about that than me answer that question.

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby lackadaisy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Also, because I'm not super excited to turn this into a "WHAT ARE MY CHANCES" thread and get yelled at, appending to original question: What kinds of test strategies are best to move 175 to 180? Typical test strategies or something different? I already own the Power Score series (all of them), three recent unused PTs, Princeton Review book, and the "10 Real"/"Next 10"/"10 More" books.

And assuming I have plenty of time to study (senior spring or summer before work), what kind of PT score should I try to get before committing to retake? My biggest worry, after all, isn't squandering $140 or even 100 hours of study time -- I GOTS TIME -- but ending up with a 174 on the real thing and losing the only advantage I have going into my cycle.

kazu wrote:Can I ask when this person got accepted? The "hard" floor has been fairly recent, as in the past couple of years - JR, the new admissions dean, seems to weigh GPAs much more heavily than TS, the previous dean.


He was accepted in 2008-2009 and is currently a 2L. I didn't know about the admissions dean change -- that's really good (though sad) to know, thanks!

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby kazu » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:28 pm

lackadaisy wrote:
kazu wrote:Can I ask when this person got accepted? The "hard" floor has been fairly recent, as in the past couple of years - JR, the new admissions dean, seems to weigh GPAs much more heavily than TS, the previous dean.


He was accepted in 2008-2009 and is currently a 2L. I didn't know about the admissions dean change -- that's really good (though sad) to know, thanks!

No problem :)

I still think though that it won't be worth retaking, at all, and that your H undergrad will more than make up for your 3.7. And also if I were you I'd spend the time you'd spend on studying for the retake on strengthening your app instead.

Best of luck!

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby almightypush » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:54 pm

lackadaisy wrote:
Ragged wrote:And also your major is utter billshit. Go find a job with it and then tell me it's not. I know plenty of Econ majors who now enjoy wonderful careers at Starbucks. It's almost as bad as Philosophy.


At full risk of sounding like an Ivy tool, I'd say that's probably because of your undergraduate institution. As another example, "business" is a joke major at many schools; you'd be a dolt to argue the same of UPenn Wharton. My job prospects are fine (by which I mean I have a job lined up) and so are those of my classmates in economics -- most of them are ending up in finance (100k-120k), consulting (85k), & econ research (40k-60k) positions out of UG. This -- and not arrogance or desperate attachment to prestige -- is why I'm limiting myself to top law schools. Okay, formally recusing myself from further discussion of this because I don't want to derail my own thread.



Harvard Grad 2, Ragged 0

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:16 pm

lackadaisy wrote:Also, because I'm not super excited to turn this into a "WHAT ARE MY CHANCES" thread and get yelled at, appending to original question: What kinds of test strategies are best to move 175 to 180? Typical test strategies or something different? I already own the Power Score series (all of them), three recent unused PTs, Princeton Review book, and the "10 Real"/"Next 10"/"10 More" books.

And assuming I have plenty of time to study (senior spring or summer before work), what kind of PT score should I try to get before committing to retake? My biggest worry, after all, isn't squandering $140 or even 100 hours of study time -- I GOTS TIME -- but ending up with a 174 on the real thing and losing the only advantage I have going into my cycle.

kazu wrote:Can I ask when this person got accepted? The "hard" floor has been fairly recent, as in the past couple of years - JR, the new admissions dean, seems to weigh GPAs much more heavily than TS, the previous dean.


He was accepted in 2008-2009 and is currently a 2L. I didn't know about the admissions dean change -- that's really good (though sad) to know, thanks!


179 or 180 avg. Do you have test day jitters that make your score dip? Or do you hit your avg?

3.7 is somewhat of a hurdle to get over, but being H undergrad helps. If you have unlimited time, why not retake (contingent on that 179, 180 avg) AND polish up your app. But if you have to choose one over the other, writing a killer PS, having strong recs, and creating a solid resume will prob go further for you specifically than a 179 retake imo.

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby swfangirl » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:23 pm

I'm going to just reiterate that the answer to your question lies in the grids. Read the grids and you'll have your answer. Most people on TLS have never seen it. I have an old file on my computer with some relevant parts of the grid. I'll post it later. Okay this is the c/p of the spreadsheet I have of the chunk of the grid my friend gave me. This is basically what it looks like for H undergards applying to H with 177+ LSATs. As you can see, one had to screw up to a 3.28 GPA before not getting admitted. So I'm going to guess that 175/3.7 is just fine.
Race-LSAT score-GPA-Major-Year-Result

Harvard students applying to Harvard
Cauasian 177 3.57 Arts&Humanities 2005 Matriculated
Caucasian 177 3.64 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Hispanic 177 3.67 Arts&Humanities 2006 Admit
Other 177 3.68 Business&Management 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 177 3.72 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Caucasian 177 3.93 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 178 3.28 Social Sciences 1996 Other
Asian 179 3.84 Arts&Humanities 2000 Matriculated
Caucasian 179 4 Natural Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 179 3.48 Arts&Humanities 2007 Matriculated
Asian 180 3.69 Business&Management 2005 Matriculated
Cauasian 180 3.74 Business&Management 2007 Matriculated

notanumber
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby notanumber » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:55 pm

swfangirl wrote:I'm going to just reiterate that the answer to your question lies in the grids. Read the grids and you'll have your answer. Most people on TLS have never seen it. I have an old file on my computer with some relevant parts of the grid. I'll post it later.


+1 - and the grid will almost certainly tell you not to retake the LSAT. That time would be better spent publishing a paper, working on an interesting project, or, better yet, working as a research assistant for a sociology or econ prof. in order to get a good line on your CV and a stronger rec.

lackadaisy wrote:Also, because I'm not super excited to turn this into a "WHAT ARE MY CHANCES" thread and get yelled at, appending to original question: What kinds of test strategies are best to move 175 to 180? Typical test strategies or something different? I already own the Power Score series (all of them), three recent unused PTs, Princeton Review book, and the "10 Real"/"Next 10"/"10 More" books.


By the time you're scoring 175 on the test, you don't have any systemic problems. IMHO, to move up to ~180 you need to eliminate all the stupid mechanical errors that cause one to mis-bubble or mis-read questions. That involves incessantly practicing full tests under timed conditions. It took me a lot longer to move from 175 to 180 than it did to move from my first timed test score of 165 to a 175. But I didn't get a 180 on test day (178), so take that advice with a grain of salt.

Again, I really don't think that the advantage you would get from an additional 5 points is worth the tiny bump you would get in admissions chances. As-is you would almost certainly get into at least one of the 3 top schools.

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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby lackadaisy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:11 pm

notanumber wrote:By the time you're scoring 175 on the test, you don't have any systemic problems. IMHO, to move up to ~180 you need to eliminate all the stupid mechanical errors that cause one to mis-bubble or mis-read questions. That involves incessantly practicing full tests under timed conditions. It took me a lot longer to move from 175 to 180 than it did to move from my first timed test score of 165 to a 175.


Thanks so much for the advice -- that makes a lot of sense -- I think I was just tired/anxious and missed some questions that way. So the solution seems to be to train myself until test-anxiety/etc no longer matters.

Just restating: I already have a pretty decent resume which will be better by the time I apply, and expect to have a great personal statement too with all the time I have to perfect it. Who knows on LORs, but I'm looking for RA jobs now so hopefully they'll be fine. I have tons of time before I apply, so I'm less concerned about weighing what to spend time on, though obviously I am worried that I might end up not doing any better or even doing worse.

swfangirl wrote:Harvard students applying to Harvard
Cauasian 177 3.57 Arts&Humanities 2005 Matriculated
Caucasian 177 3.64 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Hispanic 177 3.67 Arts&Humanities 2006 Admit
Other 177 3.68 Business&Management 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 177 3.72 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Caucasian 177 3.93 Social Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 178 3.28 Social Sciences 1996 Other
Asian 179 3.84 Arts&Humanities 2000 Matriculated
Caucasian 179 4 Natural Sciences 2007 Matriculated
Cauasian 179 3.48 Arts&Humanities 2007 Matriculated
Asian 180 3.69 Business&Management 2005 Matriculated
Cauasian 180 3.74 Business&Management 2007 Matriculated

All the TLS listed Harvard UG applicants have higher LSATs than I do. Haha... that does not make me feel better. :wink:

Kurst
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby Kurst » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:22 pm

lackadaisy wrote:What kinds of test strategies are best to move 175 to 180? Typical test strategies or something different? I already own the Power Score series (all of them), three recent unused PTs, Princeton Review book, and the "10 Real"/"Next 10"/"10 More" books.

See the posts by Haribo and Woozy in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102594

stargazin
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby stargazin » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:31 pm

Also keep in mind that the Dec LSAT had a pretty good curve. You might get a tighter curve the next time you take it.

lackadaisy
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Re: Should I retake with a 175? :/

Postby lackadaisy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:43 pm

stargazin wrote:Also keep in mind that the Dec LSAT had a pretty good curve. You might get a tighter curve the next time you take it.


I actually took it in October -- how was the curve then?




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