June 2011 Study Group

User avatar
BigBlueLaw
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby BigBlueLaw » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:13 pm

hey everyone, i'm studying for a retake and was hoping to get a study group going to meet maybe once a week in the NYC area. PM me if you're interested. good luck to all!

User avatar
pkpop
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:09 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby pkpop » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:11 pm

I'm going to be working on/ studying a big pile of LR questions for a while today. If anyone in the study group wants to drop in the room and throw around some questions or problems on the whiteboard with me, feel free. I'll probably be there until 6 EST.

User avatar
Yassig
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Yassig » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:19 pm

pkpop wrote:I'm going to be working on/ studying a big pile of LR questions for a while today. If anyone in the study group wants to drop in the room and throw around some questions or problems on the whiteboard with me, feel free. I'll probably be there until 6 EST.

Cool, I might drop by in a bit!

Ugh, everytime I come into this thread I see so many people further along in their studying than I am and I feel so behind I start to panic. Not sure if this is motivating me or making me depressed.

JG7773
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:02 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby JG7773 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:33 pm

pkpop wrote:I'm going to be working on/ studying a big pile of LR questions for a while today. If anyone in the study group wants to drop in the room and throw around some questions or problems on the whiteboard with me, feel free. I'll probably be there until 6 EST.


I will probably be in the room around 9 pm EST tonight working through some LR problems, if anyone else would like to join the party.

User avatar
99.9luft
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby 99.9luft » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:35 pm

after pounding on some RC in the past few days, i'm gonna go through the MLSAT LR guide (the fatter and newer version:). If i have time, will drop by btw 6-9pm PST

JG7773
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:02 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby JG7773 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:38 pm

99.9luft wrote:after pounding on some RC in the past few days, i'm gonna go through the MLSAT LR guide (the fatter and newer version:). If i have time, will drop by btw 6-9pm PST


If you are going to be around tomorrow night @ 8 EST or anytime after 8, we are doing a RC lesson w/ MLSAT.

User avatar
99.9luft
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby 99.9luft » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:44 pm

JG7773 wrote:
99.9luft wrote:after pounding on some RC in the past few days, i'm gonna go through the MLSAT LR guide (the fatter and newer version:). If i have time, will drop by btw 6-9pm PST


If you are going to be around tomorrow night @ 8 EST or anytime after 8, we are doing a RC lesson w/ MLSAT.


Thanks, i'll check it out! the lowest i've gotten on RC is still -2. At least i'm getting better on timing.

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby minnbills » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Just took PT 40.

LR -4
LG -4
LR -4
RC -5

165.

Still shy of the 167 I need in June. I figure I need to average a 169 or so to be comfortable, so this is disappointing. On the other hand, I only need 4 more raw score points to be at my goal.

I'm really consistent on LR but RC continues to be more variable: -2 to -6.

LG is still a problem. Given how locked in I seem to be on LR and RC, it's looking more and more like I'm going to need those extra raw score points to come out of LG. I need to find a way to get into that golden 0/-1 range.

This was also the first 5 section PT I've ever taken. I took about 35 4 section PTs before October. I could feel some fatigue by the 4th section, but I don't think it impacted me too much.

I'll spend some time over the next few days analyzing this one, seeing what areas I seem to improve on. Problem is, these questions are like jello or something. As soon as I get a grip on one thing, another part falls through. It seems to me that the only gameplan I can come up with is generic "do better on LG" type advice.

User avatar
Eichörnchen
Posts: 1119
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:51 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Eichörnchen » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Yassig wrote:
pkpop wrote:I'm going to be working on/ studying a big pile of LR questions for a while today. If anyone in the study group wants to drop in the room and throw around some questions or problems on the whiteboard with me, feel free. I'll probably be there until 6 EST.

Cool, I might drop by in a bit!

Ugh, everytime I come into this thread I see so many people further along in their studying than I am and I feel so behind I start to panic. Not sure if this is motivating me or making me depressed.

+1! :cry: I just finished the LGB today and I'm about 1/4 of the way through the LRB, which if the games bible is any indication, will take 4 years. Oh, and I need to gain at least 10 pts. Ok, I'm gonna go drink a nice mug of hemlock...

User avatar
pkpop
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:09 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby pkpop » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:17 pm

Taking a break for now, but I'll probably join the handful of you tonight in the study room...I have a lot to do before the end of the week.

Principle questions usually don't give me problems, but the "great work of art" question (PT 22 sec.2 #18) was a tough one for me -Solved-
Last edited by pkpop on Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Neidermeyer519
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:20 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Neidermeyer519 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:33 pm

I just reviewed my LR sections from the June 2007 LSAT and the December 2010 LSAT to figure out which question types are giving me the most problems. I'm still waiting on my LRB to get here in the mail, so hopefully I can start reviewing that soon.

I typically only miss a few on the LG, so I'm apprehensive to buy the LGB. Back to the grind I suppose

User avatar
2things2
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:39 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby 2things2 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:08 pm

Is anyone else retaking that has done all the preptests? I took the LSAT in December, and leading up to the LSAT I did the last 25 preptests, which along with a ton of other exercises brought me from testing in the lower 150s to the upper 160s in just under 2 months, but unfortunately I only managed a 162 on test day. My issue now is that I've done just about all the material available and have nothing new to study (other than the February LSAT, and I'm not even sure we'll be able to get that). Anyone have any tips or is anyone in the same position?

User avatar
99.9luft
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby 99.9luft » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:20 pm

2things2 wrote:Is anyone else retaking that has done all the preptests? I took the LSAT in December, and leading up to the LSAT I did the last 25 preptests, which along with a ton of other exercises brought me from testing in the lower 150s to the upper 160s in just under 2 months, but unfortunately I only managed a 162 on test day. My issue now is that I've done just about all the material available and have nothing new to study (other than the February LSAT, and I'm not even sure we'll be able to get that). Anyone have any tips or is anyone in the same position?


Re-using is fine. Start with the ones you did a while ago. Get a hand on the pts in the 30s, but I would not go older than 20s. And make sure you get the theory down first before you jump back into pting. Also, no, the feb exam is not disclosed.

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby minnbills » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 pm

Is anyone else unable to find specifc question types that give them trouble on LR?

When I tally up missed questions, no clear pattern emerges.

How do you address this?

User avatar
Hunterrhoid
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:18 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Hunterrhoid » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:40 pm

ladybug89 wrote:
Hunterrhoid, what have you been doing to study PR specifically? I'm currently getting -2 on LR, and one of those is always a PR or PF question and it's DRIVING ME CRAZAY. me want copy you. thanks!


Ladybug, I'm just running through the LRB section on it. The theory is pretty fleshed out.

Basically, there are four things that MUST match in PR/PF:
  • Method (duh)
  • Conclusion
  • Premises
  • Validity

PR/PF are like the acceptability questions that usually lead off LG: each wrong answer can be struck out because it violates one of the rules, the rules here being how the stim manifested the above 4 elements.

Question: PF/PR are usually toward the end of the section; are you getting to them with ample time? Or do you have to rush? If you have to rush, your weakness might actually be a different question type that isn't leaving you the time you need to properly address a difficult PR/PF question like SCRAG ISLAND.

  • Method means how the argument progresses (analogy, conditional, appeal to authority, the various flaws also fit here, and must match)
  • Conclusion and Premises have to match in two ways:
    • Certainty: (must, always, definitely, will, etc. in the stim can't be matched by could, might, possibly, etc.)
    • Relationship of (and amount) elements: 'A, while correlated with B, does not necessarily cause B because they could both be caused by C' is different than 'A, while correlated with B, does not necessarily cause C, because B can cause both.'
  • Validity is the soundness of the logic. If it is a PF question, the right answer can't be valid logic, and vice versa.

All of this being said, I am not dropping 180s on my PTs, so hopefully my comments will be amended/corrected by more qualified TLSers.

Also, when I asked for help on PR, no one answered, but some Cambridge LSAT salesperson/forum-lurker sent me a link to a compilation of a bunch of PR, so you could try that, but you probably already got that same PM...
Last edited by Hunterrhoid on Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ladybug89
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:57 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby ladybug89 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:45 am

Hunterrhoid wrote:
ladybug89 wrote:
Hunterrhoid, what have you been doing to study PR specifically? I'm currently getting -2 on LR, and one of those is always a PR or PF question and it's DRIVING ME CRAZAY. me want copy you. thanks!


Ladybug, I'm just running through the LRB section on it. The theory is pretty fleshed out.

Basically, there are four things that MUST match in PR/PF:
  • Method (duh)
  • Conclusion
  • Premises
  • Validity

PR/PF are like the acceptability questions that usually lead off LG: each wrong answer can be struck out because it violates one of the rules, the rules here being how the stim manifested the above 4 elements.

Question: PF/PR are usually toward the end of the section; are you getting to them with ample time? Or do you have to rush? If you have to rush, your weakness might actually be a different question type that isn't leaving you the time you need to properly address a difficult PR/PF question like SCRAG ISLAND.

  • Method means how the argument progresses (analogy, conditional, appeal to authority, the various flaws also fit here, and must match)
  • Conclusion and Premises have to match in two ways:
    • Certainty: (must, always, definitely, will, etc. in the stim can't be matched by could, might, possibly, etc.)
    • Relationship of (and amount) elements: 'A, while correlated with B, does not necessarily cause B because they could both be caused by C' is different than 'A, while correlated with B, does not necessarily C, because B can cause both.'
  • Validity is the soundness of the logic. If it is a PF question, the right answer can't be valid logic, and vice versa.

All of this being said, I am not dropping 180s on my PTs, so hopefully my comments will be amended/corrected by more qualified TLSers.

Also, when I asked for help on PR, no one answered, but some Cambridge LSAT salesperson/forum-lurker sent me a link to a compilation of a bunch of PR, so you could try that, but you probably already got that same PM...


Ahh that's really helpful, thanks! I usually finish the sections with lots of time to spare so it's not a time issue - and looking at how you've described it, I think the problem is that I'm just trying to match the wrong/noncrucial aspects of the stimulus to the answer choices.

Weirdly, I completely don't remember that part of the LRB and stupidly left mine at school when I came home for spring break. ooops. But I'm definitely going to try this tomorrow with a practice section or two. Thanks! (Also...what's scrag island?)

User avatar
ladybug89
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:57 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby ladybug89 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:48 am

minnbills wrote:Is anyone else unable to find specifc question types that give them trouble on LR?

When I tally up missed questions, no clear pattern emerges.

How do you address this?


When you miss questions, do you look at why you picked the wrong answer and why exactly that reasoning was incorrect? There might be a pattern in your reasoning that's making you get questions wrong, regardless of type. There also might not be a pattern, in which case sowwy I got nothin.

User avatar
mickeyD
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:43 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby mickeyD » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:14 am

Does anyone have any solid advice for grouping games?

They are my Achillies Heel, for some reason they just don't click the way Linear/Advanced Linear games do. Every time I do a Grouping game I never get the key inferences or see the templates like I do for linear- for example, in a linear game I'll be able to say, "Okay, in this game you can only put the QR block in 2 places, and then X and Y are interchangeable in the other spots."

What usually happens is I'll be working on a game without seeing the inferences but get by inefficiently on the first few questions by using the rules. Then I'll hit some "could be true" question which sucks because I can't rule any of them out on the spot, or some local question that would be crushed with a good template, and be forced to realize "shit, I'm missing something." Then, by the time I've finished the game in like 11 minutes I realize what the key deduction is only because I had to do several hypotheticals to eventually see what the deal is, too little to late.

I've grouped the games and have been doing them by type. The only thing that I can see really is that I need to analyze the numbers aspect more (5 variables for 3 spots, must be one of each type, etc.). Other than that I'm stumped, it's really frustrating because I generally completely blow one game per timed PT because I get crushed on a grouping game, score a 169 and realize if I didn't take that -7 on LG, I'd be in the mid to high 170s.

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby minnbills » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:34 am

ladybug89 wrote:
minnbills wrote:Is anyone else unable to find specifc question types that give them trouble on LR?

When I tally up missed questions, no clear pattern emerges.

How do you address this?


When you miss questions, do you look at why you picked the wrong answer and why exactly that reasoning was incorrect? There might be a pattern in your reasoning that's making you get questions wrong, regardless of type. There also might not be a pattern, in which case sowwy I got nothin.


I check the answers thoroughly but I think I may be doing it wrong.

I'm wondering if I focus too much on the particular stimulus whereas I should be trying to understand the underlying logic.


As an aside, when you guys review your PTs, do you check the answers immediately after you finish the test, or do you review the test first?

User avatar
geverett
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:07 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:27 pm

If anybody that has the MLSAT LR book could look at page 364 and let me know if B as the correct answer for question 4 is a typo or not it would be much appreciated. Thanks!

User avatar
Yassig
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Yassig » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:41 pm

geverett wrote:If anybody that has the MLSAT LR book could look at page 364 and let me know if B as the correct answer for question 4 is a typo or not it would be much appreciated. Thanks!

geverett, how do you see this one as being a typo? I see the logic of answer choice B. A is clearly wrong, so did you choose C?

hindijs1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:17 am

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby hindijs1 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:56 pm

b
Last edited by hindijs1 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Yassig
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Yassig » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:03 pm

hindijs1 wrote:Can someone direct me to the "room" that you guys go into when you decide to meet up occasionally?

PM JG7773 because you'll need to sign up for Manhattan, etc. to have access.

User avatar
soj
Posts: 7735
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:10 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby soj » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:52 pm

After weeks of timed and untimed practice with very old exams and the Bibles, I did my first simulated exam (minus essay). I did it strictly timed with a bubble sheet, and even practiced filling out the "I will not discuss" statement and the demographic bubbles just before the exam. (I won't be creating a habit of this--I just thought I might as well go through the motions at least once.) I didn't use an experimental section (forgot to prepare one), but I did do a 35-minute LR drill using old questions just before my 5-minute break.

Here are the results:

PT 51.5 (June 2007, the free one provided by LSAC)
LG -1
LR1 -1
LR2 -3
RC -2
Raw -7
Scaled 171

LG felt very easy. I made a ridiculous error on #6, an easy Identify a Possible Sketch question that should have been a gimme. I think the problem was that at the beginning, my diagramming for this game was very poor and inefficient (I thought it would be a different kind of game when I started diagramming--another reason to remember to read everything and consider the game for a moment before starting to diagram!!), which contributed to my confusion and overall haziness that led me to eliminate the correct answer. After Q7 I quickly rediagrammed and breezed through the game, but I should have remembered to quickly check Q6-7 before moving on to the next game. I also wasted time on Game 3 because I had misread a rule, but I quickly caught my mistake and made up time. I finished the section with more than 5 minutes to spare and spent the time reviewing the answers to what I thought were tricky questions, but didn't change any of them.

Overall, I was impressed with how well I did on the tougher LR questions even as I was baffled by the mistakes I made on the easier ones. The only Q I got wrong in LR1 is Q9, which frustrates me because it had simply never occurred to me to even consider the possible distinction between historical trends and recent three-year trends. I'm not sure what to do about this kind of mistake because I never even came close to the correct line of reasoning, though it's obvious that if I had come up with that line of reasoning, I would have selected TCR with no trouble at all.

As I was doing LR2 I felt like I was going too slowly and mismanaging my time at the beginning--as it turned out, I finished the section with 2.5 minutes to spare, actually did really well in the later Qs, and got three wrong in the first half. If anything, I should have been taking things more slowly at the beginning. The Qs I got wrong were 2, 8, and 13. For Q2, I chose the wrong AC because I stubbornly refused to assume doubling the size of one's household can increase that household's heating bill ... well, duh. TCR was a statement related to numbers that was really irrelevant to the stimulus. Not sure how I talked myself out of that one. Oh well. Just gotta be more careful in reading ACs next time, I guess.

Getting Q8 wrong was the direct result of not reading carefully. I basically glossed over the conclusion at the end of the stimulus and presumed a conclusion that was different from the one in the stimulus. :roll: Note to self never to do that again.

In Q13, it was actually faulty reasoning on my part that got me to the wrong answer. Even if cognitive psychotherapy were the only form of psychotherapy that focuses on conscious beliefs, there remains the assumption that focusing on controllable beliefs = effective that we haven't established. Had I focused on that unjustified assumption, TCR would have been easy to identify.

Overall, I'm impressed with how I managed to answer the tough LR questions at the end correctly, and didn't get too bogged down with PR questions. My weakness is still the strengthen/weaken questions.

RC went pretty well. I'm especially happy that I spent the last 1.5 minutes after finishing the last passage to go over and change my answers to two of the Internet Link Copyright passage questions (and both times ultimately selected TCR!). The two questions I got wrong were Q10 (evolution of the musical brain, comp reading) and Q18 (internet link copyright). Q10 was a tough one because I fell for a trap answer that was mentioned in both passages but not used in precisely the way the question describes. I should have given TCR more consideration, though. I'm good at analyzing structure and argument, but I seem to have trouble retaining major themes and topics.

Q18, a parallel reasoning Q, would have been an easy one had I read the question correctly. Ugh! I need to realize that while time has sometimes been an issue for me in RC, I should not try to save time by reading questions more quickly.

There were a few RC questions that I managed to get right but were pretty close calls--I plan to go over those and come up with ways in which I could have more confidently eliminated the wrong answers.

Overall, the results of this PT are pretty encouraging because of how few mistakes I made especially on the tougher questions, but the number of mistakes due to misreading is pretty troubling. I could have easily gone -3 raw rather than -7 if I hadn't made those mistakes. I hope I won't be making as many of these mistakes in future PTs.

User avatar
geverett
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:07 pm

Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:53 pm

Yassig wrote:
geverett wrote:If anybody that has the MLSAT LR book could look at page 364 and let me know if B as the correct answer for question 4 is a typo or not it would be much appreciated. Thanks!

geverett, how do you see this one as being a typo? I see the logic of answer choice B. A is clearly wrong, so did you choose C?


According to page 358: Many is synonymous with some. many = some. If the question asks what can be inferred from "Many dogs weigh more than 20 lbs. and many dogs are difficult to train." I don't see how anything can be inferred other then "Some things that weigh more than 20 lbs. are dogs and some things that are difficult to train are dogs." I don't see how you can derive a Must Be True answer that says "Some dogs that are difficult to train weigh more more than 20 pounds." Does anyone see something I am missing?




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests