June 2011 Study Group

jim-green
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MLSAT guides

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:44 pm

Coldshoulder, Soj and 99.luft, this is for you:

I have read all 3 PB bibles. 99luft told me reading the MLSAT RC guide was worth it even though I have read the PS RC bible, so I got the MLSAT RC guide, and it was very good. Next, Soj told me reading the MLSAT LR guide was worth it even though I have read the PS LRB, so I got the MLSAT one. Soj's advice was worth it.

Now for the LG MLSAT guide. If I have read the PS LGB, is it really worth it, with 49 days to go, to get the MLSAT LG guide? Any personal experience here to share? I get 0-5 incorrect on LG sections. Remember, reading the MLSAT LG guide will be at the expense of doing PTs. I still have not even completed reading the MLSAT LR guide - I do a chapter every 2 days - I just started Chapter 7.

Let me clarify: My weakest areas on LGs are grouping games and advanced linear. Does the MLSAT LG guide offer anything new or better than the PS LGB for grouping and advanced linear?

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geverett
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:25 pm

I think mlsat guide is worth it for the loose linear games, but other than that I did not find it to have anything that powerscore didn't offer. Others have found it extremely helpful though so it might be worthwhile for you!

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99.9luft
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Re: MLSAT guides

Postby 99.9luft » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:28 pm

jim-green wrote:Soj and 99.luft, this is for you:

I have read all 3 PB bibles. 99luft told me reading the MLSAT RC guide was worth it even though I read the PS RC bible so i got the MLSAT RC guide, and it was very good. Next Soj told me reading the MLSAT LR guide was worth it even though I have read the PS LRB, and I got the MLSAT one. Soj's advice was worth it. Now for the LG MLSAT guide. If I have read the PS LGB, i it really worth it, with 49 days to go, to get the MLSAT LG guide? Any personal experience here to share? I get 0-5 incorrect on LG sections. Remember, reading the MLSAT LG guide will be at the expense of doing PTs. I still have not even completed reading the MLSAT LR guide - I do a chapter every 2 days - I just started Chapter 7.


If you're getting 0-5 on LG, that means that you've covered the basics (LG bible is great for that) and all you need to do is to 1) focus better during games to not miss stupid mistakes and 2) Drill LG. Getting the MLSAT LG guide at this point and where you currently stand isn't likely to result in a 'eureka' moment. Therefore, I'd say not worth getting it. Just do LG drills on a day after a bad LG performance on a PT. Obviously, if LG is closer to -5 than to 0, i'd recommend putting PTing on hold and drilling LG for a couple of days.

ETA: what Soj is referring to as the MLSAT in/out method - it could be, indeed, a better method. However, personally it is so drastically different than the method I've learned that switching to it made me waste time and confused. For someone who already knows an is comfortable with a particular method, the MLSAT in/out diagram looks like a madman's sketch. So if you get the in/out games right consistently, that's another reason I'd say not worth it.

Good luck!
Last edited by 99.9luft on Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soj
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby soj » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:28 pm

MLSAT LG is a decent supplement for PS LG. There are two things MLSAT does better than PS:

- distribution/matching games, including IN/OUT games. MLSAT's method is drastically different from PS's for these games, and MLSAT's is much, much better.
- diagramming relative placements in pure sequencing and linear games. When you have a rule like "A interviews before B," PS recommends you write A>B, which is really more confusing than just doing A-B. I'd say just start doing A-B now if you aren't already.

Apart from that, I don't remember much of MLSAT beyond reinforcing what I already knew from PS. It wouldn't hurt to get the book, but the LG is the least helpful of the three MLSAT books.
Last edited by soj on Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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geverett
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:29 pm

jim-green wrote:Well well, I had my 1st LSAT-related nightmare last night. May have been the Mexican I ate for dinner. Dreamt that everyone on this forum topic got accepted to Yale, accept me. Dreamt that Eich was beating Soj up in the Yale Law cafeteria and taking his lunch money, while Gev was drilling cases like a madman. Dreamt that I was at FloridaCoastal, while FloridaCoastalOrBust was at Harvard instead of Yale, because inspite of getting 180 on the scored sections, he drew penis cartoons on the writing section. I woke up in a cold sweat at 2 am and did an LR section in panic till about 2:45 am, to try and catch up with all of you guys. As a result, I fell asleep again and woke up at 10 am. Looks like a tired day today. Maybe just need to take a day or two off or drink a beer and try to relax.


Hilarious.

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99.9luft
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby 99.9luft » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:30 pm

jim-green wrote:Well well, I had my 1st LSAT-related nightmare last night. May have been the Mexican I ate for dinner. Dreamt that everyone on this forum topic got accepted to Yale, accept me. Dreamt that Eich was beating Soj up in the Yale Law cafeteria and taking his lunch money, while Gev was drilling cases like a madman. Dreamt that I was at FloridaCoastal, while FloridaCoastalOrBust was at Harvard instead of Yale, because inspite of getting 180 on the scored sections, he drew penis cartoons on the writing section. I woke up in a cold sweat at 2 am and did an LR section in panic till about 2:45 am, to try and catch up with all of you guys. As a result, I fell asleep again and woke up at 10 am. Looks like a tired day today. Maybe just need to take a day or two off or drink a beer and try to relax.


haha, that's terrible, man. Yet, not bad compared to the post-LSAT, pre-score release dreams I've had last year. Fucking torture.

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geverett
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:39 pm

soj wrote:MLSAT LG is a decent supplement for PS LG. There are two things MLSAT does better than PS:

- distribution/matching games, including IN/OUT games. MLSAT's method is drastically different from PS's for these games, and MLSAT's is much, much better.
- diagramming relative placements in pure sequencing and linear games. When you have a rule like "A interviews before B," PS recommends you write A>B, which is really more confusing than just doing A-B. I'd say just start doing A-B now if you aren't already.

Apart from that, I don't remember much of MLSAT beyond reinforcing what I already knew from PS. It wouldn't hurt to get the book, but the LG is the least helpful of the three MLSAT books.


I would definitely concur on the 2nd point made here. Not so much on the 1st point. Of course this guy is stomping my ass on raw score right now so don't take my word for it. Oh self deprecation!

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:55 pm

geverett wrote:I think mlsat guide is worth it for the loose linear games, but other than that I did not find it to have anything that powerscore didn't offer.
Gev, thanks for both comments! What are loose linear games? I know basic linear like PT46 G1 and advanced linear like PT46 G2, but what are loose linear?
Last edited by jim-green on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jim-green
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Re: MLSAT guides

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:00 pm

99.9luft wrote:If you're getting 0-5 on LG, that means that you've covered the basics (LG bible is great for that) and all you need to do is to 1) focus better during games to not miss stupid mistakes and 2) Drill LG.
ETA: what Soj is referring to as the MLSAT in/out method - it could be, indeed, a better method. However, personally it is so drastically different than the method I've learned that switching to it made me waste time and confused. For someone who already knows an is comfortable with a particular method, the MLSAT in/out diagram looks like a madman's sketch. Good luck!
Thanks 99! How did you know my -5's are due to careless mistakes?!?! I am great at IN/OUT games that have long conditional chains like Birds in a Forest or PT43 Raimundo's friends in a picture. Is this what you mean by IN/OUT where MLSAT is different from PS? The grouping games that I am bad at are like 5 kids and 4 parents divided into 3 boats. I will take your advice on drilling and try and do at least 2 games everyday. Thanks for the Good Luck. I've been angling for one on the forum, but Gev said I'd only get it if I did a full timed PT and I've been holding off :-)

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:09 pm

soj wrote:MLSAT LG is a decent supplement for PS LG. There are two things MLSAT does better than PS:
- distribution/matching games, including IN/OUT games.
- diagramming relative placements in pure sequencing and linear games.
the LG is the least helpful of the three MLSAT books.
Soj, Thanks! What type do you mean by distribution/matching and including IN/OUT games. Possible to send me PT and game #s? Do you mean Venn diagrams by any chance?
About the "relative placements", I agree wholeheartedly. I took a 1 hr tutoring lesson from an MLSAT tutor and he showed me the A-B style. It is SO much better. Your comment about "the LG is the least helpful of the three MLSAT books" is very helpful to know. I'm grateful you insisted on my getting the MLSAT LR guide.

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soj
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby soj » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:18 pm

IN/OUT game
- you probably already know what these are. e.g. birds in the forest, 7 people in two committees (PT41 G3), reducing the budget in 5 of 8 areas (PT20 G2)

Distribution/matching
- MLSAT calls them open assignment, which is probably the better term for it. e.g. three people each buying at least one of three foods (PT12 G3), five illnesses and three symptoms (PT4 G2)

No, not Venn diagrams. The only game I ever felt compelled to do a Venn diagram for is that game with a plane and four areas it could be in, and even that game is much, much better solved treating it as a grouping game.

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geverett
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:21 pm

mickeyD wrote:After a hard week of drilling, I sucked it up and took on Superprep C today. Used StanleyOttoSwift's untimed review as usual.

4/16: Superprep C
LG: -3 (-0 untimed)
LR: -3 (-3 untimed)
LR: -2 (-0 untimed)
RC: -2 (-1 untimed)
Raw: 92/101 = 173! (179 untimed)

The games section, as promised, was really tricky. I've been practicing to calm myself down during LG so I can think clearly, and as a result dominated the first two games. But out of nowhere on game 3 I had trouble understanding the rules and panic mode creeped up. Also game 4 was really evil, it intimidated the shit out of me with its big setup (15 slots), which is the last thing a little games wimp like me needs with time running down.

My intense LR drilling for the past two weeks helped IMMENSELY. It may not be reflected in my score, but this is the first time I've ever come close to 15Qs in 15mins, and I wasn't even trying to. When I looked at the clock during question 20 and saw 10+ minutes left, I swear to God I thought my timer was broken. This happened on both LR sections, although for LR2 it was actually necessary. This particular section had the nastiest parallel reasoning question I've ever encountered. If anyone's curious, its (SPC LR2 #24).

Anyways, I made it out of the Superprep series alive, not to mention with my best 3 scores ever.

Superprep A: 171
Superprep B: 175
Superprep C: 173

Eich, LG drilling will become our lives between now and June 6.


Hey Mickey,
Can you tell me about doing the tests un timed after you finish the timed PT's. Do you think this is helping? If so how? Also do you do it on the same practice test and just write a new answer doing besides the old one if you decide to change it or do you print out an all new PT? Would love to hear more of your thoughts on this method.

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Neidermeyer519
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Neidermeyer519 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:26 pm

PT 56

LG: -2
LR1: -4
LR2: -1
RC: -4

Raw Score 89
Scaled Score 170

Not sure what happened on that first LR section. A few of those questions just kicked me in the ass. Also a little surprised at the ones I missed on games. I think I misread on one of the questions, but I did finish games with about 6 minutes to spare and LR with about 5 minutes to spare on the second section.

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Eichörnchen
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Eichörnchen » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:29 pm

hahahaha! don't steal my lunch money eich, or you'll hear about it at the C&F interview on the bar exam.

squealer!! Haha

oh, and Florida totally would do that ;)

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:48 pm

Neidermeyer519 wrote:PT 56
LG: -2
LR1: -4
LR2: -1
RC: -4
Raw Score 89
Scaled Score 170
Really? I got my highest score ever on PT56 and felt it was the easiest PT ever in terms of RC, LR and games. I thought 59 was MUCH harder.

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:53 pm

soj wrote:Distribution/matching
- MLSAT calls them open assignment, which is probably the better term for it. e.g. three people each buying at least one of three foods (PT12 G3), five illnesses and three symptoms (PT4 G2)
Soj, OK got it! How does MLSAT solve these open assignment games? Have a picture of a setup diagram you could post or point me to? PS doesn't even solve these I think. If MLSAT will help me improve on just these, I'll buy the book.

JG7773
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby JG7773 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:53 pm

Suddenly after all these weeks of study, the LSAT just became real. I just got the notification via e-mail that my LSAT ticket was available for printing. Let the games begin!!!

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Neidermeyer519
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Neidermeyer519 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:01 pm

jim-green wrote:
Neidermeyer519 wrote:PT 56
LG: -2
LR1: -4
LR2: -1
RC: -4
Raw Score 89
Scaled Score 170
Really? I got my highest score ever on PT56 and felt it was the easiest PT ever in terms of RC, LR and games. I thought 59 was MUCH harder.


Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with the first LR. The games was just a silly mistake, I should have went -0 on it. Oh well.

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:07 pm

Neidermeyer519 wrote:
jim-green wrote:
Neidermeyer519 wrote:PT 56
LG: -2
LR1: -4
LR2: -1
RC: -4
Raw Score 89
Scaled Score 170
Really? I got my highest score ever on PT56 and felt it was the easiest PT ever in terms of RC, LR and games. I thought 59 was MUCH harder.


Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with the first LR. The games was just a silly mistake, I should have went -0 on it. Oh well.
Careless mistakes on LGs are my specialty, like choosing the first answer that works. I work hard at it.

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geverett
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby geverett » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:09 pm

Manhattan's way of doing IN/OUT games looks kind of like a pinball machine to me.

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Neidermeyer519
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby Neidermeyer519 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:12 pm

jim-green wrote:
Neidermeyer519 wrote:
jim-green wrote:
Neidermeyer519 wrote:PT 56
LG: -2
LR1: -4
LR2: -1
RC: -4
Raw Score 89
Scaled Score 170
Really? I got my highest score ever on PT56 and felt it was the easiest PT ever in terms of RC, LR and games. I thought 59 was MUCH harder.


Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with the first LR. The games was just a silly mistake, I should have went -0 on it. Oh well.
Careless mistakes on LGs are my specialty, like choosing the first answer that works. I work hard at it.


What is still hurting me mostly is the really complex LR questions, where it is really easy to get lost in convoluted words. There's usually 3-5 questions on each LR section that almost completely stall me because it gets difficult to wrap my mind around them.

As for games I'm usually fine unless I miss a key deduction, then I panic and go into plug and chug mode. lol

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ladybug89
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby ladybug89 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:18 pm

jim-green wrote:Well well, I had my 1st LSAT-related nightmare last night. May have been the Mexican I ate for dinner. Dreamt that everyone on this forum topic got accepted to Yale, accept me. Dreamt that Eich was beating Soj up in the Yale Law cafeteria and taking his lunch money, while Gev was drilling cases like a madman. Dreamt that I was at FloridaCoastal, while FloridaCoastalOrBust was at Harvard instead of Yale, because inspite of getting 180 on the scored sections, he drew penis cartoons on the writing section. I woke up in a cold sweat at 2 am and did an LR section in panic till about 2:45 am, to try and catch up with all of you guys. As a result, I fell asleep again and woke up at 10 am. Looks like a tired day today. Maybe just need to take a day or two off or drink a beer and try to relax.


That's amazing. I had an LSAT nightmare last week too but yours is just...way better. Or worse, I guess. (Mine was your standard OH NO I MISSED IT AND I LOST MY TICKET AND SHIT WHERE IS THE TESTING ROOM I'M SO CONFUUUUSED. And then my heart was pounding so fast when I woke up that I had a headache the rest of the day. Argh.)

Anyone else have crazy dreams? We can commiserate! =P

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mickeyD
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby mickeyD » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:42 pm

geverett wrote:Hey Mickey,
Can you tell me about doing the tests un timed after you finish the timed PT's. Do you think this is helping? If so how? Also do you do it on the same practice test and just write a new answer doing besides the old one if you decide to change it or do you print out an all new PT? Would love to hear more of your thoughts on this method.


Well, the method I use is the one described in this topic: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36512

It definitely helped me a lot, because it helps me clearly see the reasoning I used to get to the answer choices. Sometimes under the clock I pick an answer that I'm not 100% sure about, but this method allows me to take the time to work through it, decide why one is right and all the others are wrong. If I see I made a mistake, I write the corrected answer next to the old one. Then when I check the answers, I can clearly see the faulty reasoning I used (twice).

This method, combined with intense question type drilling, what what I used to push from hoping for 168s to expecting 172s. For the first 3-4 tests I literally spent hours typing up a little paragraph for EVERY question (minus LG) saying why I picked it, or why I changed it. Then if I got it wrong, I would bold the paragraph and write the explanation for why it was wrong. This helped me get a lot more out of each timed PT. After my scores improved, I cut the writeups out but kept the untimed review.

It's takes a ton of time, but I can't say I'm unhappy with the results. Now if only I could get logic games down...

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soj
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby soj » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Say you have a game where each of six people (A-F) eats at least one of three dishes (X-Z), and nothing else. Each person eats no more than one dish of each kind. And then you have a bunch of rules.

Based on the setup, you know each person eats one, two, or three dishes. So you write ABCDEF horizontally and draw three blank rows above them. Now the trick is keeping track of the minimum and maximum number of dishes each person eats. Right now you know that's 1 and 3 respectively, but the rules could change that. Keeping track of the distribution is key to doing well on these problems.

You represent the minimum by turning blanks into boxes boxes (or domes, since it's faster). You represent the maximum by crossing out any blanks beyond the maximum.

Examples
1. If based on the rules you infer that A eats either one dish or two dishes, you box one blank and cross out another blank.
2. If based on the rules you infer that B eats exactly two dishes, then you BOX two of his blanks, and cross out the third.
3. If based on the rules you infer that C eats all three dishes, then you just write XYZ in C's three blanks. (You can also box those blanks to show they're occupied, but you already do that by filling them in.)
4. If based on the rules you infer that D eats more dishes than E does, then you box two of D's blanks and cross out one of E's. Based on more information about whether E eats one or two dishes, you might be able to box D's third blank, too.
5. If based on the rules you infer that F eats X and does not eat Z, then you write X in one of F's blanks, write in small letters Y? next to another, and cross out the third.

Your diagram might look like this:

Code: Select all

/ / Z _ / /
_ O Y O _ _Y?
O O X O O X
A B C D E F

I used O instead of boxes because it's easier to type on the internet. :P

jim-green
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Re: June 2011 Study Group

Postby jim-green » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:55 pm

soj wrote:I used O instead of boxes because it's easier to type on the internet. :P
Soj, this is the nicest thing anyone has ever done for me all year! And it's so easy to follow too. I am going to solve the games you mentioned with this method now! THANKS!




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