Cancelling the LSAT

jwzp
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby jwzp » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:03 pm

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Last edited by jwzp on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stargazin
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby stargazin » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:05 pm

Great thread northwood! You are a rock star for posting this. One thing I would add is to consider how you usually feel after PTs vs. how you do. I don't always feel good after PTs either. Sometimes after PTs I feel like it'll be horrid (I mark the Qs I have doubts about and sometimes it's 1/3 of a section) but I usually am pleasantly surprised.

ss12389
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby ss12389 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:20 pm

I was just wondering how likely it is that sections one FELT were going really well actually went terribly. I am leaning towards keeping my score - based on the assumption that RC and LR went at least as well as they did during my practice - so I was just wondering if it often happens that people think they did really well/had no problems and then actually did really badly...?

jwzp
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby jwzp » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:42 pm

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Last edited by jwzp on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dav8dav
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby dav8dav » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:52 pm

I'm usually just a lurker around these boards, but Northwood's incredibly kind and helpful advice to members has inspired me to register.

Since the big Dec. 10 test, I have also been dancing with the thought of cancellation. It was my first time taking the test and I walked out feeling very discouraged. Usually, I never have to take any guesses on practice tests, but I guessed on 3-4 questions (at varying degrees of educated/noneducated-ness). LG was clearly on the difficult side (3 of my guesses came from this section), but the rest of the test felt 'weird' as well. What's particularly discouraging is that I feel like I can't gauge my performance on the other sections. It's possible I scored at the bottom of my normal range of 170-76 but I also feel that it's possible I scored as low as 166-68. My prediction is 166-172. A wide range, I know, but as a first time test taker everything was just too intense and too weird to keep my head straight. It all seems too chaotic to properly assess my performance. What I do know is that it didn't seem to go as smoothly as usual.

I went into the test very encouraged based on my performance on PTs 58-60 (176-180-176). Before the test, I was thinking that my likely score and my application's other aspects-- 4.0, great softs (Fulbright Scholarship, President of a non-profit, lots of language skills), greats recs-- put me on track for a T3 school for this cycle. But now I don't know what I should do.

I would really prefer starting school in 2011. Half of me tells me to take the risk and get the scores. If my score ends up at the low, I think I would still have a nice shot at Berkeley (after all, I'm a public interest guy and not too interested in big law..). The other half says cancel and go for the gold in February. After all, with my virgin LSAT and that weird LG out of the way, I won't get the jitters next time. It would be kind of torturous waiting until 2012 to start school, though. Ugh.

I have few friends who are law students, so advice on what people would do in my shoes would be very appreciated.

Thanks and I hope everyone is enjoying their Jameson. I know I am (although its a Guiness).

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:41 pm

ABOUT THE february lsat:
People say to stay away from it because 1) its nondisclosed and you wont be able to learn what sections hurt you, what question types you need to work on, 2) its very late in the cycle- most schools rolling admissions end around march 1 ( seat deposits are due april 15th) and thus the amoiunt of seats left and sholarship money left is little. If you are going to take the feb test you should do only if it will help you get off waitlists, or help with scholarship money ( and a decrease score wont hurt). talk to admissions people about this for further details.

4) taking it in june has many advantages. In addition to being disclosed, it also gives you the entire summer to prep for october. You can get your applications done over the summer and apply the first day possible. If you take it and decide to retake in October, you can still get your essays, resume, and letters done and have a lot of time to study.

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:48 pm

dav8dav wrote:I'm usually just a lurker around these boards, but Northwood's incredibly kind and helpful advice to members has inspired me to register.

Since the big Dec. 10 test, I have also been dancing with the thought of cancellation. It was my first time taking the test and I walked out feeling very discouraged. Usually, I never have to take any guesses on practice tests, but I guessed on 3-4 questions (at varying degrees of educated/noneducated-ness). LG was clearly on the difficult side (3 of my guesses came from this section), but the rest of the test felt 'weird' as well. What's particularly discouraging is that I feel like I can't gauge my performance on the other sections. It's possible I scored at the bottom of my normal range of 170-76 but I also feel that it's possible I scored as low as 166-68. My prediction is 166-172. A wide range, I know, but as a first time test taker everything was just too intense and too weird to keep my head straight. It all seems too chaotic to properly assess my performance. What I do know is that it didn't seem to go as smoothly as usual.

I went into the test very encouraged based on my performance on PTs 58-60 (176-180-176). Before the test, I was thinking that my likely score and my application's other aspects-- 4.0, great softs (Fulbright Scholarship, President of a non-profit, lots of language skills), greats recs-- put me on track for a T3 school for this cycle. But now I don't know what I should do.

I would really prefer starting school in 2011. Half of me tells me to take the risk and get the scores. If my score ends up at the low, I think I would still have a nice shot at Berkeley (after all, I'm a public interest guy and not too interested in big law..). The other half says cancel and go for the gold in February. After all, with my virgin LSAT and that weird LG out of the way, I won't get the jitters next time. It would be kind of torturous waiting until 2012 to start school, though. Ugh.

I have few friends who are law students, so advice on what people would do in my shoes would be very appreciated.

Thanks and I hope everyone is enjoying their Jameson. I know I am (although its a Guiness).



Its ultimately up to you. The top 6 schools ( harvard, Yale, stanford, michigan, penn, columbia, and maybe a few more) or so do average the test scores. Berkeley I think takes the best one, and looks at the overall application. With your grades, you have more room for error, than say a 3.7 gpa. So if you are okay with this, then definately keep the score. If you are going to go harvard, yale or stanford or no law school- then you should cancel. and take it later.
IF you do decide to cancel- keep in mind that you applicaitno will be complete very late in the cycle. A lot of the top top schools will have been filled, or nearly filled, leaving stiffer competition for seats, and even more competition for scholarhships. If you were to decide to cancel- my best advice would be to seriously consider applying next year. Take the test in June or February ( whatever works best for you) get the rest of your application ready to go, and submit them on the first day possible in the fall. You will have a much easier time getting not onoly accepted, but in with scholarship money as well.

If you havent done so allready, get your letters sent out asap. this is the most time consuming part of the application, and can seriouly throw a wrench in your cycle if you dont allocate enough time for people forgetting- mailing and having it uploaded to your account, etc

Tullstone
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby Tullstone » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:19 pm

northwood wrote:
dav8dav wrote:I'm usually just a lurker around these boards, but Northwood's incredibly kind and helpful advice to members has inspired me to register.

Since the big Dec. 10 test, I have also been dancing with the thought of cancellation. It was my first time taking the test and I walked out feeling very discouraged. Usually, I never have to take any guesses on practice tests, but I guessed on 3-4 questions (at varying degrees of educated/noneducated-ness). LG was clearly on the difficult side (3 of my guesses came from this section), but the rest of the test felt 'weird' as well. What's particularly discouraging is that I feel like I can't gauge my performance on the other sections. It's possible I scored at the bottom of my normal range of 170-76 but I also feel that it's possible I scored as low as 166-68. My prediction is 166-172. A wide range, I know, but as a first time test taker everything was just too intense and too weird to keep my head straight. It all seems too chaotic to properly assess my performance. What I do know is that it didn't seem to go as smoothly as usual.

I went into the test very encouraged based on my performance on PTs 58-60 (176-180-176). Before the test, I was thinking that my likely score and my application's other aspects-- 4.0, great softs (Fulbright Scholarship, President of a non-profit, lots of language skills), greats recs-- put me on track for a T3 school for this cycle. But now I don't know what I should do.

I would really prefer starting school in 2011. Half of me tells me to take the risk and get the scores. If my score ends up at the low, I think I would still have a nice shot at Berkeley (after all, I'm a public interest guy and not too interested in big law..). The other half says cancel and go for the gold in February. After all, with my virgin LSAT and that weird LG out of the way, I won't get the jitters next time. It would be kind of torturous waiting until 2012 to start school, though. Ugh.

I have few friends who are law students, so advice on what people would do in my shoes would be very appreciated.

Thanks and I hope everyone is enjoying their Jameson. I know I am (although its a Guiness).



Its ultimately up to you. The top 6 schools ( harvard, Yale, stanford, michigan, penn, columbia, and maybe a few more) or so do average the test scores. Berkeley I think takes the best one, and looks at the overall application. With your grades, you have more room for error, than say a 3.7 gpa. So if you are okay with this, then definately keep the score. If you are going to go harvard, yale or stanford or no law school- then you should cancel. and take it later.
IF you do decide to cancel- keep in mind that you applicaitno will be complete very late in the cycle. A lot of the top top schools will have been filled, or nearly filled, leaving stiffer competition for seats, and even more competition for scholarhships. If you were to decide to cancel- my best advice would be to seriously consider applying next year. Take the test in June or February ( whatever works best for you) get the rest of your application ready to go, and submit them on the first day possible in the fall. You will have a much easier time getting not onoly accepted, but in with scholarship money as well.

If you havent done so allready, get your letters sent out asap. this is the most time consuming part of the application, and can seriouly throw a wrench in your cycle if you dont allocate enough time for people forgetting- mailing and having it uploaded to your account, etc


North, do you really believe that committees only take your highest score? Even if you go down on a second test admin?

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:26 pm

depends on the school obviously. However, I have a big gap in my scores( 15 points) and the schools that I have heard back from ( t2 and ttt) havent said anything about my gap. I do have a solid reason for the discrepency and wrote the addendum for it, so they understood. If you have a big gap, or a decrease, you need to explain yourself to them.

In the end, they only have to report 1 lsat score per admitted and matriculated student. While I dont doubt that they look at all of the scores, as long as you explain yourself with an addendum you should be fine.

However I have an upward scoring trend. Im sure admissions people will accept this easier than someone who went down. There is a 3 point diffferential on your score band, which means that on any given test, you should score within a certain range. ex you got a 170- that means you should score between a 173 and a 167 on any given test, taking some factors such as test difficulty, type of experimental, your performance, etc. So if you end up scoring 3 points lower than your first test, its not totally horrific. anythiung outside that, then you need to re take and explain what went wrong.

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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby Tullstone » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:27 pm

stargazin wrote:Great thread northwood! You are a rock star for posting this. One thing I would add is to consider how you usually feel after PTs vs. how you do. I don't always feel good after PTs either. Sometimes after PTs I feel like it'll be horrid (I mark the Qs I have doubts about and sometimes it's 1/3 of a section) but I usually am pleasantly surprised.



Last time i thought i did bad on a prep test, it was the highest I ever scored. lol.

BxBob0711
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby BxBob0711 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:09 pm

I bombed a game and subsequently an RC passage because it was the last section of the test and I was tired and mad about the LG that was the section before. I'm gonna cancel take some time off for the holidays and then start studying again for the June one. If I don't do well after studying for this and the 6 months to June then I dunno what I'd do :p Thanks for the advice Northwood you're awesome

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lifeaway1985
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby lifeaway1985 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:12 pm

I got a 160 last June. What if I did worse than 160 this December? :oops:

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:30 pm

if you do worse than your juine test, you should take it again. You dont want a negative score trend.

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lifeaway1985
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby lifeaway1985 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:34 pm

:oops: last June I obviously did worse in RC and better in LG... It's hard to say I did better or worse in general...

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lifeaway1985
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby lifeaway1985 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:35 pm

Suddenly, I feel my situation can be used to formulate a LR question. LOL

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:36 pm

How did LR go for you? Did you have to make a lot of guesses on RC? did you get to all of the passages?
As for LG how many games did you complete? Of those, how many did you think you went -2 or better? Did you do all 4 games?

Were you able to get to all of the questions on each section?

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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby swimmer86 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:44 pm

Hi Northwood - Thanks for your great advice to everyone. Would you be willing to give your thoughts on my situation?

I've now taken the LSAT 3 times. My first time was June 2010, when I got food poisoning the night before the test. I tried taking it anyway, but it was a disaster. October 2010, I came back with a 166. Since I had been scoring 175-180 on recent prep tests, I decided to go for one more try, but think I really bombed the LG this time around (probably around -7/-8), with the other sections feeling average/slightly more tricky (-2/-3). Now I'm not sure what to do.

I have a 3.76 GPA from an Ivy, and a few years of work experience, but I know that the LSAT is the most important factor in admissions. I was hoping for a top 20 school (especially UMich, UVa, or Berkeley), but I know that is now a stretch. Would a cancellation on this December test look bad? Would a bad score hurt worse? Should I cross my fingers for a good curve? I'd appreciate your advice. Thanks!

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:54 pm

A 3.7 166 is a good place to be to start with.
Im guessing you went -2/-3 per section? Ill go worst case and best case scenario
worst case ( -8 Lg, -3 per section)
total -17. Looks like you will be around a 166( assuming the curve is -12, december is traditionally a more lenient curve than october though.

Best case (-7 LG, -2 per section)
Total -13. You should be right around 170 land, maybe 169 if its a -12 curve
Hypothetically speaking, and assuming the curve is -12, you should be scoring around 165- 170 using your best and worst case scenarios. Any score higher than your last lsat is great news. Even testing within 3 points is okay ( your score band is 3 points higher, and 3 points lower thatn you actual score. What this means is that if you were to be given multiple tests, your range would be 3 points in either direction. So if you score within that, then thats expected.

With a cancel allready in the books. This will be your last attempt to increase your score, unless you petition a school to let you sit again. Its a close call, but right now your lsat is not quite good enough for mich, va or berkeley. But its good enough for a lot of other good schools. Do you know what region you want to practice in? If you have a definate region, apply there, and cancel. if you are okay with not going to top14. If you really want top 14, keep the score and hope for the best.

However, a cancel 166 cancel will loook better to the admissions people than cancel 166, lower. The first one you dont give them any reason to doubt your first test. If you score significantly lower than your 166, you will have to explain it, or else they may think your 166 was more a result of good luck than skill.

i hope this helps.

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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby serdog » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 am

After sleeping on it I decide to write an addendum rather the cancel my score. Over all I feel good about the LSAT(I found the LG not too nbad) I don't want to risk canceling a score of 160+ which should get me UVIC.

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lifeaway1985
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby lifeaway1985 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:23 am

northwood wrote:How did LR go for you? Did you have to make a lot of guesses on RC? did you get to all of the passages?
As for LG how many games did you complete? Of those, how many did you think you went -2 or better? Did you do all 4 games?

Were you able to get to all of the questions on each section?


I think I did ok in LR, only made two guesses in the second section. I complete all the LR, RC and LG. But I made at least 3 guesses in last RC, and at least 4 guesses in last games in LG. I was too nervous then, and cannot recall much...

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:41 am

lifesaway:
How many prep tests did you do? how long did you prep? Most of the time your intuition and skills that you ahve learned will help you on the test, as long as you didnt overthink it. With about 9 guesses, I say that to be on the pessismistic side go with about guessing 3 right, and getting 6 wrong, if they were educated guesses. If you just blindly guessed, all bets are off. If you are only unsure about 9 questions, then keep the score. If you honestly feel as though you bombed it walking out of the test- cancel. Have you gotten this feeling during a prep test? If you did, how did you actually do, compared to the feeling?

Just some thoughts for you to think as you decide what to do. in the end whatever decisoin you make is going to be the right one.

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niederbomb
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby niederbomb » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:02 am

northwood wrote:lifesaway:
How many prep tests did you do? how long did you prep? Most of the time your intuition and skills that you ahve learned will help you on the test, as long as you didnt overthink it. With about 9 guesses, I say that to be on the pessismistic side go with about guessing 3 right, and getting 6 wrong, if they were educated guesses. If you just blindly guessed, all bets are off. If you are only unsure about 9 questions, then keep the score. If you honestly feel as though you bombed it walking out of the test- cancel. Have you gotten this feeling during a prep test? If you did, how did you actually do, compared to the feeling?

Just some thoughts for you to think as you decide what to do. in the end whatever decisoin you make is going to be the right one.


Is one's impression walking out of the test always accurate?

During the break, after RC, experimental LG, and 1 LR, I felt "this is pretty good."

After the 2nd LG I was almost ready to cry and give up on the 2nd LR. I know I probably missed 2 on the third game and up to 5 on the 4th game. But I just can't remember enough from the 2nd game. Did I get the right answer for every question, or did I guess on some? I could have gotten anywhere from 12-16 correct on LG. LR -4 (conservative), and let's be conservative and say -4 for RC (not likely, but I did struggle a little on the last passage). -7-11= -18. -7-7= -14.

I took 10 minutes to do 5 questions on section 5; then, I remembered a few PT's where I had bombed LG and gotten over 170 from perfect LR, so this motivated me to do my best on that section. I finished it in 33 minutes.

After the test, I just felt awful, awful, awful. But I'm not sure if this was from lack of sleep, sugar crash, or solely because of the test. The test I took was different than the U.S. one, so I'm not even sure if the curve will be as generous. Since, whatever the case, I've already blown my chances at U.S. T6, the University of Toronto (which is GPA heavy) is my top choice. I might even be alright there with a 166.

But if I do cancel, I'm going to have to wait until next cycle whereas, if I don't, I have a chance of getting somewhere this cycle.

I like my job and my surroundings, but I'm afraid OCI employers are going run for the hills if I tell them I blew two years in China teaching the TOEFL test while many of my peers spent their time doing outstanding things in business and industry. One thing's for sure, I'm not likely to get a job worth taking in the U.S. with my major without SOME kind of postgraduate work. I just cannot decide whether or not to cancel.

I feel worse than I did after October, and I got 162 on that test. But I know I did objectively better on both LR and RC this time. I also did 19 PT's between October and December, reviewed most of them thoroughly, and saw massive LR improvement (consistent -4's to a lot of -1's or -0's).
Last edited by niederbomb on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:12 am

It depends. You have a best, unbiased opinion of how you did on each section as the test is still fresh in your mind, and you havent been on tls yet. I dont understand the if i do part- it doesnt make much sense.

I also think working in China as a TOEFL is a good conversation starter. Not a lot of people do that, and it makes you a more well rounded person. I also think that switching industries is a good thing,because you bring in an outside perspective to the firm/ school, atmosphere.
Go check out the schools websites for the ones you are interested in. Find their 25% and 75% of lsat scores ( in a section like incoming class profile or something similar), and their gpas as well. You will get a better idea of what score you need, and what grades you need to have a competitive shot. Then make your decision from there.

You finished the real lg games section with time to spare.( thats a good sign). You were able to pull it together for the second LR.
Cancelling or keeping gets very tough, esp the closer you are to 170+. Its up to you. If you can write out your best case scenario ( number wrong) and worst case scenario ( number wrong). THen go find a chart ( lsat blog has a good chart of score breakdowns by curves) and see how your best case scenario and worst case scenario hold up to a curve of -12, -13, - 14. Then make a decision.

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niederbomb
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby niederbomb » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:22 am

northwood wrote:It depends. You have a best, unbiased opinion of how you did on each section as the test is still fresh in your mind, and you havent been on tls yet. I dont understand the if i do part- it doesnt make much sense.

I also think working in China as a TOEFL is a good conversation starter. Not a lot of people do that, and it makes you a more well rounded person. I also think that switching industries is a good thing,because you bring in an outside perspective to the firm/ school, atmosphere.
Go check out the schools websites for the ones you are interested in. Find their 25% and 75% of lsat scores ( in a section like incoming class profile or something similar), and their gpas as well. You will get a better idea of what score you need, and what grades you need to have a competitive shot. Then make your decision from there.

You finished the real lg games section with time to spare.( thats a good sign). You were able to pull it together for the second LR.
Cancelling or keeping gets very tough, esp the closer you are to 170+. Its up to you. If you can write out your best case scenario ( number wrong) and worst case scenario ( number wrong). THen go find a chart ( lsat blog has a good chart of score breakdowns by curves) and see how your best case scenario and worst case scenario hold up to a curve of -12, -13, - 14. Then make a decision.


It was supposed to be "if I do cancel."

I did not finish the real LG with time to spare. I finished the experimental LG with time to spare. I got at least -7 on the real one because I only got through 19 questions and made educated guesses on around 4 of them.

I don't really trust my perception because, on October, I thought I bombed and still overestimated my score by 4 points. Maybe I've compensated adequately for this one; maybe I haven't.

Some people claim that even 164/3.9 will get me into my top school, but I don't know whether to believe them or not. The median GPA is 3.8, and the median LSAT is 168. There certainly isn't enough data to make an informed decision in this respect.

I took 7 fresh PT's I had never seen before between October and December and got 170+ on all the ones on which I allotted myself the full 35 minutes (4 of them). But I've come to learn that PT average and test day performance have almost nothing in common. Now, if I were to do all my PT's on 0 sleep, it might be different....

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northwood
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Re: Cancelling the December LSAT

Postby northwood » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:33 am

your a reach at your top school. Its not guarenteed that you will get in.

I guess I would say just to be prepared to apply next cycle. If you keep it or not, you can always see how your cycle plays out, then sign up for the june test. ( dont do anything until march- you should have a good idea by then, and you will have a ton of time to being prep for june). As long as this isnt your 3rd test in 2 years ( the maximum amount allowed) you still have one last retake left.




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