Engineer in trouble

thegarciab0y
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Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:42 pm

Hey guys this is my first official post on this forum, I have been a lurker for months since I have been studying for the LSAT and need any help I can get. Basically I have been having extreme trouble getting my score up since I have first started. I am an engineering student with straight A’s at one of the top engineering schools, but I really am one of the people who get nailed by the LSAT. I feel like I have done anything and everything from a-z to prepare for the LSAT, but I just cannot get my score up above a 155 to be 100% honest. I have read and completed both Powerscore bibles, completed most of Pithy’s study guide, Voyagers RC techniques, and I am still getting a consistent minus 8-10 on LR and always at least minus 10 on RC. I didn’t mention trouble with the games since I have very good analytical skills and the games come almost natural to me.
Some major things I am having trouble with are timing, I never finish all 26 questions of a LR section because I just can’t consistently answer a question in 1:24. Also, on RC I never even get the chance to read the entire 4th article, which always kills my score. I have a feeling engineering has dramatically inclined my academic skills toward pure analytical and I have almost no reasoning skills despite my completion of the LR bible.
But seriously, any advice for a hoping future patent lawyer??

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JazzOne
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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:46 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:Hey guys this is my first official post on this forum, I have been a lurker for months since I have been studying for the LSAT and need any help I can get. Basically I have been having extreme trouble getting my score up since I have first started. I am an engineering student with straight A’s at one of the top engineering schools, but I really am one of the people who get nailed by the LSAT. I feel like I have done anything and everything from a-z to prepare for the LSAT, but I just cannot get my score up above a 155 to be 100% honest. I have read and completed both Powerscore bibles, completed most of Pithy’s study guide, Voyagers RC techniques, and I am still getting a consistent minus 8-10 on LR and always at least minus 10 on RC. I didn’t mention trouble with the games since I have very good analytical skills and the games come almost natural to me.
Some major things I am having trouble with are timing, I never finish all 26 questions of a LR section because I just can’t consistently answer a question in 1:24. Also, on RC I never even get the chance to read the entire 4th article, which always kills my score. I have a feeling engineering has dramatically inclined my academic skills toward pure analytical and I have almost no reasoning skills despite my completion of the LR bible.
But seriously, any advice for a hoping future patent lawyer??

How long have you been prepping?

thegarciab0y
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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:55 pm

I have been prepping for about two and a half months and have signed up for the December LSAT. I review every single wrong answer on practice tests that I take and most of the time they are either from just careless mistakes due to juggling too much information in my head, or just from an overly complicated stimulus that seems near impossible for me to grasp. Underlining the question type and identifying the question stem before I read the stimulus has really helped me to improve my LR score from around 12 correct per section to around 16.

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vegenator
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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby vegenator » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:03 pm

What I'm going to suggest might seem drastic to a lot of the TLSers out there, as it certainly won't boost you up to a 165+, but I think it might actually net you a few extra raw points. (By the way, what is your target score?)

In addition to practicing more (particularly reading comp), I think if timing is one of your main concerns it may be advantageous to actually slow down on the three reading passages you are able to finish.
Budget the time as if there were only three passages, and then bubble in guesses for the last passage.

There are typically 4 reading passages (6-7 qs each) and if you can nail each of the questions in 3 passages and get a few freebies by guessing on the fourth passage, that should put you at better than a -10 for the section. Try it out on a few practice tests and see how you do with this technique. If you're not able to get the answers for the first three sections regardless of the added time, perhaps time isn't the only issue you should focus on.

Best of luck!

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:07 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:I have been prepping for about two and a half months and have signed up for the December LSAT. I review every single wrong answer on practice tests that I take and most of the time they are either from just careless mistakes due to juggling too much information in my head, or just from an overly complicated stimulus that seems near impossible for me to grasp. Underlining the question type and identifying the question stem before I read the stimulus has really helped me to improve my LR score from around 12 correct per section to around 16.

I have been teaching LSAT for a few years. Of the hundreds of students I have tutored, very few could adequately prep in three months. It really used to frustrate me that our courses were so short because I felt like it misled the students into thinking that the duration of the course was sufficient time to prep. For some people, it is, but for most, six months is more reasonable. I would even say that most people don't top out in six months.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby vegenator » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:08 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:I have been prepping for about two and a half months and have signed up for the December LSAT. I review every single wrong answer on practice tests that I take and most of the time they are either from just careless mistakes due to juggling too much information in my head, or just from an overly complicated stimulus that seems near impossible for me to grasp. Underlining the question type and identifying the question stem before I read the stimulus has really helped me to improve my LR score from around 12 correct per section to around 16.



Do you take notes/scribble/use shorthand while taking prep tests? Doing so certainly helped me sort out question types, simplify complicated concepts as well as keep the important stuff somewhat organized (in one spot). I think doing so helped me eliminate a lot of potential silly mistakes.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:17 pm

Vegenator- I do like that idea of trying for accuracy on the RC and just spending the extra time to be 100% sure on my favorite three articles. I have started doing that on the LR, so instead of finishing around question number 24 and getting probably 12-13 correct, I have been finishing up to #19-20 and getting around 16-17 correct, so slowing down and trying for accuracy actually has helped me a lot, but I will never finish past question #21 taking the time I need for accuracy. Anything to help me on RC I will try, since getting a consistent 13/27 is really destroying my score like a wrecking ball. By the way, I am hoping for a 159-160, anything around that range and I can call it mission accomplished in my book. I am growing to accept that reasoning just may not be what I am inclined for, since in physics and math I am always the student with either the best test grade or second to best in the entire class, I’m going back to thinking that analytical just might be what my brain was born to do. It is just frustrating that with 2.5-3 months of consistent 15 hrs a week prep and drilling PTs that not a single thing is reflected in my score :/

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:22 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:I have a feeling engineering has dramatically inclined my academic skills toward pure analytical and I have almost no reasoning skills despite my completion of the LR bible.


Fellow engineer here. Sorry, I don't think you can blame your LSAT troubles on your major. :?

Are you a fast reader? I found that to be a major advantage. I don't know how much it can be improved in a couple of weeks/months, but I've read voraciously my whole life and can get through a 600-page book in a day and a half (just in my spare time off work). The RC reading selections take me less than 2 minutes each, giving me much more time for actually answering questions. If you're taking 4 minutes to slog through the reading selection, think about how much time that's wasting.

TLS recommends reading dense material like The Economist and Scientific American to improve your speed and absorption of the boring stuff you'll find on the LSAT.

When you review your answers on a PT, don't just look at the ones you get wrong. Also review the ones you got right. You need to be able to explain to yourself why the correct answer is correct and the incorrect ones are incorrect. Confirm to yourself your answer choice on the ones you got right, and convince yourself of the correct answer on the ones you got wrong.

I don't think there's any way to fix "careless mistakes due to juggling too much information in my head" except to, well, not make careless mistakes. If you ignore the time limit, do you reduce the careless mistakes? I'd try taking a PT with unlimited time to see whether it's the material or the time limit affecting you most. Not everyone agrees, but I personally say aim for quality first, and then work on quantity (speed). The only section I personally had time issues on was LG, but first I worked at mastering the LG skills (with no time limit), and as I got more comfortable with the material, my speed gradually increased on its own.

Are you using the spreadsheets available to identify which types of questions give you the most trouble? LSAC also has the ItemWise service on the shop on LSAC.org, which keeps track of what answers you're getting wrong and explains the solutions.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:28 pm

Scribbling off to the side is usually something I do with RC since it helps me to break down the paragraphs without having to re-read the entire paragraph to remember what it meant or the significance of it, and it has helped me to get most of the main point ones right, it’s just those types of questions “Which one would the author most likely agree with?” I mean in my head there’s never really an exact answer its always just one that I say to myself “yeah, that sounds really good, he would like to hear that” or “yeah he probably likes the way that sounds more than the other ones” and its most likely wrong. In engineering its always in an exact answer (black or white), but with the LSAT its never an exact answer (always completely in the grey) and my greydometer doesn’t seem to be too good.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:32 pm

To be honest, I will never read a 600 page book in a day in a half, there is just something sick about that idea to me, since I’d rather spend my time doing something else, but I do go over the wrong and right ones like you said, and when I do I see the mistakes I make and seem to correct them, but around 25% of the time when I correct a wrong one to a right one I think to myself “that’s stupid there’s no way in 100 years I would have ever picked that as the logical answer, I can see why they picked it, but I really strongly still disagree and think A sounds much better” and it’s a way of thinking I seem to have that I can’t break away from, its instinct. Or it’s the LSAT, and some of the questions are ridiculous, which some other will agree I think.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:34 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:To be honest, I will never read a 600 page book in a day in a half, there is just something sick about that idea to me, since I’d rather spend my time doing something else...

do not go to LS

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby vegenator » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:36 pm

LSAT prep sucks. PERIOD :mrgreen:
But, like one of the posters above mentioned, I think it really takes a LOT of time for people to max out on it. I think you should be able to get a 160 in time, but, it'll take a lot of dedicated practice. I actually quit my crappy temp job last year in mid December and studied 40+ hours a week until the February test and I still felt like I could have done better.

I think what helped me the most in the final weeks was just cranking through actual practice exams and, as the poster above mentioned, going through ALL of the answers (right and wrong). I was doing any where from one to three tests a day (I toned it down the week before the test to avoid burn out). I felt that I was getting much more out of that than from study guides. By taking test after test I got a sense for the questions and started to notice patterns in the types of questions they ask and the correct answers. You eventually get to a point where you don't even need to read all the answer choices (which saves a lot of time, as does speed reading).

Hang in there and focus on the tests themselves. Try going for accuracy and once you feel confident with that maybe try to squeeze a few more questions in each section for LR. If you haven't done so already, buy up as many practice tests as you can.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:40 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:To be honest, I will never read a 600 page book in a day in a half, there is just something sick about that idea to me, since I’d rather spend my time doing something else, but I do go over the wrong and right ones like you said, and when I do I see the mistakes I make and seem to correct them, but around 25% of the time when I correct a wrong one to a right one I think to myself “that’s stupid there’s no way in 100 years I would have ever picked that as the logical answer, I can see why they picked it, but I really strongly still disagree and think A sounds much better” and it’s a way of thinking I seem to have that I can’t break away from, its instinct. Or it’s the LSAT, and some of the questions are ridiculous, which some other will agree I think.


Whatever the fuck you do, DO NOT go to law school. I've read more in this last semester than I read in my entire engineering undergrad.

If you got straight A's at a top engineering school go get your PhD, or go find a job in industry.

Why do you even want to go to law school? Nevermind, I don't care, just don't.

What engineering school did you go to? I went to Illinois.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:44 pm

That’s like saying if I don’t enjoy math problems or home projects on my spare time, I shouldn’t be an engineer, pure garbage. I have been one of the few I know to excel in school as much as I do, as with bodybuilding winning competitions, and other things in life (starting in high school football) and just because I don’t like reading “some” books doesn’t mean I won’t do good in law school. It just could be a thing I have with standardized tests (answering 26 questions in a little more than a half hour seems impossible every time and the fatigue always sets in, even after 20-30 PTs) I really believe anybody can achieve success with enough determination and persistence, its all about how bad you want it. Law school has always seemed attractive to me, it holds my interest, and anything with law does. IP Law is the most lucrative area and it is exclusive to engineers and hard science majors, which means other engineers are going through the exact same thing as I am. If you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from saying it. I have read about tons of people who start testing in the 140-150 range and end up in the mid 160 range, it is possible. Thank you Vegenator, I appreciate your advice.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:08 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:That’s like saying if I don’t enjoy math problems or home projects on my spare time, I shouldn’t be an engineer, pure garbage. I have been one of the few I know to excel in school as much as I do, as with bodybuilding winning competitions, and other things in life (starting in high school football) and just because I don’t like reading “some” books doesn’t mean I won’t do good in law school. It just could be a thing I have with standardized tests (answering 26 questions in a little more than a half hour seems impossible every time and the fatigue always sets in, even after 20-30 PTs) I really believe anybody can achieve success with enough determination and persistence, its all about how bad you want it. Law school has always seemed attractive to me, it holds my interest, and anything with law does. IP Law is the most lucrative area and it is exclusive to engineers and hard science majors, which means other engineers are going through the exact same thing as I am. If you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from saying it. I have read about tons of people who start testing in the 140-150 range and end up in the mid 160 range, it is possible. Thank you Vegenator, I appreciate your advice.


If you didn't enjoy math and got a 500 on your Math SAT I'd tell you to not go to Engineering school.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby AverageTutoring » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
thegarciab0y wrote:That’s like saying if I don’t enjoy math problems or home projects on my spare time, I shouldn’t be an engineer, pure garbage. I have been one of the few I know to excel in school as much as I do, as with bodybuilding winning competitions, and other things in life (starting in high school football) and just because I don’t like reading “some” books doesn’t mean I won’t do good in law school. It just could be a thing I have with standardized tests (answering 26 questions in a little more than a half hour seems impossible every time and the fatigue always sets in, even after 20-30 PTs) I really believe anybody can achieve success with enough determination and persistence, its all about how bad you want it. Law school has always seemed attractive to me, it holds my interest, and anything with law does. IP Law is the most lucrative area and it is exclusive to engineers and hard science majors, which means other engineers are going through the exact same thing as I am. If you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from saying it. I have read about tons of people who start testing in the 140-150 range and end up in the mid 160 range, it is possible. Thank you Vegenator, I appreciate your advice.


If you didn't enjoy math and got a 500 on your Math SAT I'd tell you to not go to Engineering school.


You know you're an engineer when you capitalize engineering, love it. As much as ERTW, we don't get a capital! I know right, what the heck is that about?

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:20 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:That’s like saying if I don’t enjoy math problems or home projects on my spare time, I shouldn’t be an engineer, pure garbage. I have been one of the few I know to excel in school as much as I do, as with bodybuilding winning competitions, and other things in life (starting in high school football) and just because I don’t like reading “some” books doesn’t mean I won’t do good in law school. It just could be a thing I have with standardized tests (answering 26 questions in a little more than a half hour seems impossible every time and the fatigue always sets in, even after 20-30 PTs) I really believe anybody can achieve success with enough determination and persistence, its all about how bad you want it. Law school has always seemed attractive to me, it holds my interest, and anything with law does. IP Law is the most lucrative area and it is exclusive to engineers and hard science majors, which means other engineers are going through the exact same thing as I am. If you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from saying it. I have read about tons of people who start testing in the 140-150 range and end up in the mid 160 range, it is possible. Thank you Vegenator, I appreciate your advice.

I was trying to help you out, but now that I read more about your proclivities, I would agree that law school is a bad idea. If you don't enjoy reading (a lot), then you're going to be miserable in law school. I'm the kind of guy who digests hundreds of pages per day for pleasure, and I still find the reading for school to be extremely tedious at times. And don't discount the predictive value of the LSAT. Law school exams entail strict time limits, so people who take a lot of time to formulate thoughts and ideas don't fare too well in law school. Determination and persistence do not necessarily equate to success in law school. Most of your classmates will be highly determined and persistent. Studying law may seem interesting in the abstract, but when you start dealing with the minutiae, it becomes frustrating rather quickly.

Take a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137657

In that thread, Vankwinkle made several posts totaling 1,500 or 2,000 words to analyze a ONE-SENTENCE HYPOTHETICAL. Read that thread. It should give you some idea of how boring and monotonous law school can be. The issue discussed in that thread is one you will have to learn about in your first year civil procedure course. Read that and ask yourself how much of that you could stomach. That's just one of about 25 or 30 topics you'll cover in civil procedure, and that analysis doesn't even mention the relevant case law that would shed additional light on the subject.

IP law is not necessarily the most lucrative, and it is not limited to hard science majors and engineers. You can't sit for the patent bar without those majors, but you don't need to be a member of the patent bar to work in IP law. If I recall correctly, the patent bar is only required for patent prosecution. Also, patent law is freakin' boring. I am a published biologist, and I'm taking Intellectual Property this semester. I cannot believe how dry the material is. I read a patent application last week for an electronic nasal mucous remover that made me want to pull my hair out over the fact that someone spent the time, energy, and money to draft that thing. I thought I wanted to work in patent law too. The thing is, you have very little control over the results of OCI. The IP firms I was interested in did not show any interest in me. So, I now find myself with a job offer at a litigation firm, not an IP firm.

It is probably possible for you to become a better reader and improve your LSAT score. But that still doesn't mean that law school is the right decision. Think carefully. There are more than 40,000 lawyers graduating every year. If you don't enjoy law school, your grades will probably not be impressive. You could find yourself with no job and a butt load of debt. The tone on this forum can be harsh, but the advice is usually sound.
Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

czelede
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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby czelede » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:31 pm

All I can suggest for raising your LSAT at present is to perhaps polish up your reading skills by regularly reading a LOT of similarly worded materials (economic magazines, for instance) because it seems like that's your main hurdle (which is not a hurdle which will disappear at entrance to a top school, by the way).
Last edited by czelede on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:34 pm

If the OP super duper loves patent prosecution he should go get a job as a patent agent, then have them pay for law school.

That way he goes to law school for free, has a job at the end, and nobody will care where he went to school.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby czelede » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:36 pm

.
Last edited by czelede on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby KevinP » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:38 pm

I have a similar background but I've found that it helped me on all sections except RC.

The only section that screwed me is the RC because I tended to read it as if I was reading a math proof, e.g. memorising every detail and taking my time. This led me to start at about -10 and I was able to improve to a -6 via repetition. However, the major breakthrough came for me recently (-2 RC) and that occurred when I started paying attention to the author's tone, points of views, and terms. However, now I don't memorise specifics and instead just mark them and refer to them as needed. I really don't have advice for LR/LG besides read the bibles and practice...

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:49 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:To be honest, I will never read a 600 page book in a day in a half, there is just something sick about that idea to me

Gosh, thanks.

thegarciab0y wrote:That’s like saying if I don’t enjoy math problems or home projects on my spare time, I shouldn’t be an engineer, pure garbage.


Reading is an essential tool. I just mentioned the 600-page book to show that some people absorb written material like oxygen. You may not enjoy reading recreationally, but you MUST be able to read freaking TONS of material, read quickly, and absorb the relevant information out of it. Reading 600-page books for fun is part of my background. We'll see, next fall, how it serves me in law school.

What we're saying is that if someone sucks at math problems, they shouldn't be an engineer. You, apparently, suck at logical reasoning, which is what the LSAT measures, is something that law school demands, and is somewhat essential to practicing law.

If you read through the solutions and see why the correct answer was right and still disagree with it, I'm not sure what can be done. It's like having your heart set on getting into a music conservatory and becoming a professional composer but being unable to carry a tune or read music, and insisting that the C-major scale is just wrong. There are plenty of people around you who can hum the C-major scale just fine, and you either need to learn it or at least fake it.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby thegarciab0y » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:05 pm

I do not suck at logical reasoning, in fact I think I am doing fairly well at is since before 2 and a half months ago it was completely foreign to me. Out of completing 20 problems in 35 minutes, I rarely get more than 3 or 4 wrong; I am just the type of person that needs to take a little more time to recheck my work before I am confident to move on. And I don’t think this is an engineering competition either, I am just trying to show that some things come really natural to me with almost no effort when others are struggling and some other things e.g. RC and LR aren’t so easy and I feel like I am putting in 100% with other people are effortlessly excelling. I do enjoy tons of reading, I recently read “To Save America” by Newt Gingrich in my spare time, because I enjoy learning about politics etc. I have fairly good accuracy with LR, some give me trouble every once in a while, usually 1 per PT I have trouble even understanding after the test, and others are careless mistakes. LG just come natural, no problems there, usually 21/22 correct, and RC stabs me in the back every time.

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:09 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:I do enjoy tons of reading, I recently read “To Save America” by Newt Gingrich in my spare time, because I enjoy learning about politics etc.

obvious flame ibtl

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Re: Engineer in trouble

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:14 pm

thegarciab0y wrote:I have almost no reasoning skills

thegarciab0y wrote:I do not suck at logical reasoning

lol

flame




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