Is it worth it to take the test again?

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tiggaplease
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby tiggaplease » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:52 pm

lakers3peat wrote:
The Gentleman wrote:But I don't see how retaking would be a smart option for the OP. He studied for four months, had a PT average in the low 160s, and scored a 161 on the actual. Sounds like an open and shut case.


End of thread.


Agreed.

I think an issue with this thread, and maybe TLS in general (in my humble recently-joined opinion), is that there's this expectation that every person get to the T-14, and if they fall short, work more to try to get there. Yes, this might push some people to great things, it might push them farther than they thought possible. But it'll also push some people to being coke-addicted psychopathic ambulance chasers. And for chrissake, T-14 is T-14 because there's 86 goddamn T-100 schools below them, and not all of those students become hobos. No, maybe I wont get into BigLaw, but I didn't apply to law school to get into BigLaw.

It is tempting to retake the test, be it December or next year. But the idea of me spending an extra year at my dead-end office job, studying my ass off for something that I already studied my ass off for, it's not appetizing. And there's no assurance that I'll actually do any better. An extra 6-7 points? I wish! Of the 16 or so tests I practiced on, the highest score I got was a 165, and that was once. There's no magic bullet to a 168. I took an SAT prep course back in the day, my second score 1280, compared to my first score of 1310. $450 down the drain. Prep classes suck.

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JazzOne
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:15 pm

tiggaplease wrote:
lakers3peat wrote:
The Gentleman wrote:But I don't see how retaking would be a smart option for the OP. He studied for four months, had a PT average in the low 160s, and scored a 161 on the actual. Sounds like an open and shut case.


End of thread.


Agreed.

I think an issue with this thread, and maybe TLS in general (in my humble recently-joined opinion), is that there's this expectation that every person get to the T-14, and if they fall short, work more to try to get there. Yes, this might push some people to great things, it might push them farther than they thought possible. But it'll also push some people to being coke-addicted psychopathic ambulance chasers. And for chrissake, T-14 is T-14 because there's 86 goddamn T-100 schools below them, and not all of those students become hobos. No, maybe I wont get into BigLaw, but I didn't apply to law school to get into BigLaw.

It is tempting to retake the test, be it December or next year. But the idea of me spending an extra year at my dead-end office job, studying my ass off for something that I already studied my ass off for, it's not appetizing. And there's no assurance that I'll actually do any better. An extra 6-7 points? I wish! Of the 16 or so tests I practiced on, the highest score I got was a 165, and that was once. There's no magic bullet to a 168. I took an SAT prep course back in the day, my second score 1280, compared to my first score of 1310. $450 down the drain. Prep classes suck.

If you really want to throw some money down the drain, apply to law school with a mediocre LSAT score.

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Rikkugrrl
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby Rikkugrrl » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:19 pm

OP, you and I are numbers twins (barring like a few hundredths of a point difference in GPA) and I wish you luck. This thread makes fellow 161ers sad :(.

jarofsoup
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:22 pm

If you have not applied yet and you are not going to retake get those apps in now. Even if you are still debating a retake get those apps in.

Getting an app in now with a 161 can do a lot more for you than getting an app in Jan. with a 162.

Zuckerberg creator of facebook was also a Harvard drop out. Any billionares graduate?

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northwood
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby northwood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:27 pm

i thought bill gates dropped out of high school.

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well-hello-there
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby well-hello-there » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:34 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Zuckerberg creator of facebook was also a Harvard drop out. Any billionares graduate?


But he was qualified to get accepted in the first place.

jarofsoup
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:52 pm

well-hello-there wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:Zuckerberg creator of facebook was also a Harvard drop out. Any billionares graduate?


But he was qualified to get accepted in the first place.



Did you see the Social Network. The character who was his best friend who ended up sueing him made 300,000k on futures trading when he was in highschool.

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2014
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby 2014 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:26 pm

tiggaplease wrote:
lakers3peat wrote:
The Gentleman wrote:But I don't see how retaking would be a smart option for the OP. He studied for four months, had a PT average in the low 160s, and scored a 161 on the actual. Sounds like an open and shut case.


End of thread.


Agreed.

I think an issue with this thread, and maybe TLS in general (in my humble recently-joined opinion), is that there's this expectation that every person get to the T-14, and if they fall short, work more to try to get there. Yes, this might push some people to great things, it might push them farther than they thought possible. But it'll also push some people to being coke-addicted psychopathic ambulance chasers. And for chrissake, T-14 is T-14 because there's 86 goddamn T-100 schools below them, and not all of those students become hobos. No, maybe I wont get into BigLaw, but I didn't apply to law school to get into BigLaw.

It is tempting to retake the test, be it December or next year. But the idea of me spending an extra year at my dead-end office job, studying my ass off for something that I already studied my ass off for, it's not appetizing. And there's no assurance that I'll actually do any better. An extra 6-7 points? I wish! Of the 16 or so tests I practiced on, the highest score I got was a 165, and that was once. There's no magic bullet to a 168. I took an SAT prep course back in the day, my second score 1280, compared to my first score of 1310. $450 down the drain. Prep classes suck.

No one is trying to push you into the T14, you are the one who has self proclaimed goals of getting into Hastings slash the "best school you can". If that is the case, then 1. You can't get into hastings now and if you want to = retake
2. If you want to get into the best school you can = retake

If you would have started this thread talking about how your parents own a law firm and you have a job set up and you really just want to go to law school in California, then hardly anyone would advocate a retake.

I bet if you were to go through your prep for the first test in detail, plenty of people on here would be able to point out enough flaws and causes for you failing to hit high 160's other than you just don't have it in you.

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well-hello-there
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby well-hello-there » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:57 pm

I think many people go to law school because they are risk averse. It is a guaranteed paycheck and most people think it is a guaranteed BIG paycheck. Sure you can go to whittier, cooley, southwestern or where-ever else and STILL manage to make yourself filthy stinking rich..................BUT.........that will require you to be an attorney AND an entrepreneur.
Are you an entrepreneur? Or are you looking for a weekly paycheck. If you're looking for a weekly paycheck, then your BEST bet at making that paycheck a big one is to go to a top law school.

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lakers3peat
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby lakers3peat » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:07 pm

I thought I would put the definition of mediocre here because you are tossing it out improperly.
While it may seem mediocre to you, quality is a subjective measurement.
me·di·o·cre
/ˌmidiˈoʊkər/ [mee-dee-oh-ker]
–adjective
1.of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2.rather poor or inferior.


Scoring better then 84% of people is not ordinary or moderate quality. Getting a 151 and scoring better than 49% of people would put you at the tip of that bell curve and be moderate or ordinary quality. For someone who thinks they are the LSAT guru, you sure do toss out advice as if you were the LSAT guru.

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niederbomb
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby niederbomb » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:39 am

I thought I would put the definition of mediocre here because you are tossing it out improperly.
While it may seem mediocre to you, quality is a subjective measurement.
me·di·o·cre
/ˌmidiˈoʊkər/ [mee-dee-oh-ker]
–adjective
1.of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2.rather poor or inferior.


Scoring better then 84% of people is not ordinary or moderate quality. Getting a 151 and scoring better than 49% of people would put you at the tip of that bell curve and be moderate or ordinary quality. For someone who thinks they are the LSAT guru, you sure do toss out advice as if you were the LSAT guru.



Considering the fact that the vast majority of people in law school (including TTT) have >150 and the fact that 33% of the graduating class each year can't get a law job (45,000 grads, 30,000 jobs), then 84th percentile LSAT coupled with sub-30th percentile GPA (a guess) is cutting it close, to say the least.

So yeah, in today's competitive legal job market 84th percentile LSAT + way below average GPA is mediocre if you compare that person to the pool of law students who actually get good jobs after law school (a significant minority).

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JazzOne
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:46 am

lakers3peat wrote:I thought I would put the definition of mediocre here because you are tossing it out improperly.
While it may seem mediocre to you, quality is a subjective measurement.
me·di·o·cre
/ˌmidiˈoʊkər/ [mee-dee-oh-ker]
–adjective
1.of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2.rather poor or inferior.


Scoring better then 84% of people is not ordinary or moderate quality. Getting a 151 and scoring better than 49% of people would put you at the tip of that bell curve and be moderate or ordinary quality.

So, if quality is subjective (as you acknowledged), then why must I accept your opinion of what is mediocre? No one is "tossing" out the word improperly. It is my subjective opinion that 161 is mediocre. It is "barely adequate" to get into a school with reasonable job prospects. Perhaps you should pipe down and listen up.

lakers3peat wrote:For someone who thinks they are the LSAT guru, you sure do toss out advice as if you were the LSAT guru.

Fuck me and my internal consistency!

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby lakers3peat » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:51 pm

lakers3peat wrote:So yeah, in today's competitive legal job market 84th percentile LSAT + way below average GPA is mediocre if you compare that person to the pool of law students who actually get good jobs after law school (a significant minority).


Where are you getting your stats from?

These are the stats that I pulled up for UC Davis, the school POSTER wants to go to.

LSAT Score (Median)** 162
LSAT Score (25th-75th percentile) 159-165
GPA (Median)** 3.57 GPA Range (25th-75th percentile) 3.38-3.75

Graduates employed at graduation: 78.8%
Graduates employed 9 months after graduation: 87.1%
Salary: $103,500

His GPA is cutting it close but his LSAT is within the range for admittance and LSAT scores are weighed higher proportionally speaking.

lakers3peat wrote:if you compare that person to the pool of law students who actually get good jobs after law school (a significant minority).


88% employed after 9 months.. Big minority. Yep.

JazzOne wrote:then why must I accept your opinion of what is mediocre?


You don't. But you do need to accept the fact that you are a pretentious asshole. All you did was offer your bitter, negative opinion saying the OP was going to "throw some money down the drain." 4000 posts here? Maybe its time you trolled somewhere else.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:02 pm

lakers3peat wrote:It's ok if I make stupid and unsubstantiated remarks because JazzOne is a pretentious asshole!

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2014
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby 2014 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:06 pm

Lakers3peat You seriously believe that 88% of the people are employed in full time permanent legal jobs after graduation?

You realize that "employed" covers anyone who is doing research, working at mcdonalds, selling real estate, reviewing documents, etc? Plus it's only based on whoever bothers to respond, which is self selective for the people who actually DO have jobs.


I know you are trying to play the role of the hero here fighting off the "pretentious assholes" but your advice is so far from the truth to the point of being blatantly misleading. Now there are nicer ways to post than to tell someone they are "throwing money down the drain" I agree, but it is fundamentally the truth.


Do you realize that more than 150,000 people take the LSAT in a given year?
Only 45,000 graduate from law school every year, so the obvious connection to make there is that MOST of the people who are even in law school and who finish are the ones who scored in the upper percentiles, whereas those who don't bother to attend are the ones who drag down the percentiles.

The fact is that ~80th percentile IS mediocre. It is a score that thousands of people would love to have, and it is certainly better than most people who take the test, but if you change your population to account for only those people who are actually in law school, it is very average.

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tiggaplease
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby tiggaplease » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:22 pm

Why can't weeeeeeeee be friends, why can't weeeeeeee be friends... Stop getting so personal, children.

I think my time would be better spent spending a year in the actual field of law, networking and making contacts, then spending another year on the goddamn LSAT.

Don't worry people-I've-never-met, I take all your advice with a big grain of salt. But it is helpful advice nonetheless, and both sides have good points. It is an interesting question, one that I've pretty much already decided on. I don't think my stats are particularly mediocre, nor do I think they're outstanding. I appreciate those standing up for my stats, and I also appreciate those saying I should work more to improve them.

Just for kicks, here's my tentative school list, along with the approximate (%) chances I have of getting in, according to LSAT's UGPA/LSAT search function. The list is not set in stone.

University of WA 10-20
UC Hastings 10-25
UC Davis 25-40
Lewis & Clark 45-55
Loyola Marymount 55-65
Santa Clara 80-90
USF 85-95

I might throw in Seattle U or USD, not quite sure yet. They're all West Coast, as I plan on being here long term and can better network. The point is, these are chances that I think I can live with.

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lakers3peat
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby lakers3peat » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:36 pm

JazzOne wrote:Only 45,000 graduate from law school every year, so the obvious connection to make there is that MOST of the people who are even in law school and who finish are the ones who scored in the upper percentiles,


That is so far from the truth but you can keep trying to convince yourself that only high percentile scorers attend law school and get jobs. If that is what makes you feel better, by all means, I am only here to point out that there is difference between constructive criticism and being a d-bag.
Although, I thought the obvious connection to make was that not everyone who takes the LSAT attends law school. I don't know how you conclude that because 150,000 take the test and 45,000 graduate that only people who score in the upper percentiles attend law school. Sounds like some erroneous logic to me.


JazzOne wrote:but if you change your population to account for only those people who are actually in law school, it is very average.


If you limit your sample size to the top 10 law schools in the country, it is not even average, it is BELOW average. But the OP isn't asking about Yale, Harvard. or Princeton. They were asking about UC Davis where their score falls within the range of admitted LSAT scores.

Like I said earlier, believe it or not, where you attend law school isn't the lone factor in determining whether or not you get a job after law school. I'm not naive; obviously, attending a more prestigious law school is an advantage but so does having connections into the industry or being an outgoing person who is able to withstand peer review or employer interviews. The point is that there are a multitude of factors that contribute towards one's employment.

JazzOne wrote:Now there are nicer ways to post than to tell someone they are "throwing money down the drain" I agree, but it is fundamentally the truth.


I don't agree that it is "throwing money down the drain" and that's why I posted here in the first place. The responses I saw people giving were all discouraging and I thought it was a little ridiculous. You can say things like, you have a better chance of getting admitted with a higher score or a higher score increases your chances of getting a scholarship, which is true and understood by the OP I'm sure. But to come out and say things like, you are throwing your money down the drain or you are going to get a job paying $50000 at best is not only wrong, it's a condescending, pretentious response that insecure trolls would throw out to make themselves feel better about their chances of getting a job or getting into law school. Get off his fucking case, seriously. These schools are ABA accredited for a reason.

To the OP: Best of luck to you on admissions & your future--I'm sure you will be alright.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:38 pm

lakers3peat wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Only 45,000 graduate from law school every year, so the obvious connection to make there is that MOST of the people who are even in law school and who finish are the ones who scored in the upper percentiles,


That is so far from the truth but you can keep trying to convince yourself that only high percentile scorers attend law school and get jobs. If that is what makes you feel better, by all means, I am only here to point out that there is difference between constructive criticism and being a d-bag.
Although, I thought the obvious connection to make was that not everyone who takes the LSAT attends law school. I don't know how you conclude that because 150,000 take the test and 45,000 graduate that only people who score in the upper percentiles attend law school. Sounds like some erroneous logic to me.


JazzOne wrote:but if you change your population to account for only those people who are actually in law school, it is very average.


If you limit your sample size to the top 10 law schools in the country, it is not even average, it is BELOW average. But the OP isn't asking about Yale, Harvard. or Princeton. They were asking about UC Davis where their score falls within the range of admitted LSAT scores.

Like I said earlier, believe it or not, where you attend law school isn't the lone factor in determining whether or not you get a job after law school. I'm not naive; obviously, attending a more prestigious law school is an advantage but so does having connections into the industry or being an outgoing person who is able to withstand peer review or employer interviews. The point is that there are a multitude of factors that contribute towards one's employment.

JazzOne wrote:Now there are nicer ways to post than to tell someone they are "throwing money down the drain" I agree, but it is fundamentally the truth.


I don't agree that it is "throwing money down the drain" and that's why I posted here in the first place. The responses I saw people giving were all discouraging and I thought it was a little ridiculous. You can say things like, you have a better chance of getting admitted with a higher score or a higher score increases your chances of getting a scholarship, which is true and understood by the OP I'm sure. But to come out and say things like, you are throwing your money down the drain or you are going to get a job paying $50000 at best is not only wrong, it's a condescending, pretentious response that insecure trolls would throw out to make themselves feel better about their chances of getting a job or getting into law school. Get off his fucking case, seriously. These schools are ABA accredited for a reason.

To the OP: Best of luck to you on admissions & your future--I'm sure you will be alright.

I didn't write any of that shit you dumbfuck.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby lakers3peat » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:41 pm

jazzone wrote:I'm a loser troll with no life. 4000 posts and counting. Somone give me attention Wahhhhhhh.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:45 pm

lakers3peat wrote:
2014 wrote:Do you realize that more than 150,000 people take the LSAT in a given year?
Only 45,000 graduate from law school every year, so the obvious connection to make there is that MOST of the people who are even in law school and who finish are the ones who scored in the upper percentiles, whereas those who don't bother to attend are the ones who drag down the percentiles.

I don't know how you conclude that because 150,000 take the test and 45,000 graduate that only people who score in the upper percentiles attend law school. Sounds like some erroneous logic to me.

Most =/= only, brainiac.


lakers3peat wrote:The point is that there are a multitude of factors that contribute towards one's employment.

I wonder what the largest factor is.

lakers3peat wrote:But to come out and say things like, you are throwing your money down the drain or you are going to get a job paying $50000 at best is not only wrong, it's a condescending, pretentious response that insecure trolls would throw out to make themselves feel better about their chances of getting a job or getting into law school.

That must be it. I'm trying to make myself feel better about my chances of getting a job or getting into law school.

lakers3peat wrote:Get off his fucking case, seriously. These schools are ABA accredited for a reason.

Hahahahahahahahahahah

Flame
Last edited by JazzOne on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JazzOne
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:46 pm

lakers3peat wrote:
jazzone wrote:I'm a loser troll with no life. 4000 posts and counting. Somone give me attention Wahhhhhhh.

You're doing a fine job of giving me attention. Move over to the left nut please.

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omninode
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby omninode » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:54 pm

Off topic I admit, but I'm curious.

When we say 150,000 people take the test each year, do we really know this is 150,000 DIFFERENT people? Many people take the test multiple times. Is it possible that we are really talking about maybe 50-80,000 NEW test takers every year and the rest are retakers?

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JazzOne
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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:55 pm

omninode wrote:Off topic I admit, but I'm curious.

When we say 150,000 people take the test each year, do we really know this is 150,000 DIFFERENT people? Many people take the test multiple times. Is it possible that we are really talking about maybe 50-80,000 NEW test takers every year and the rest are retakers?

Well, that's interesting. You're probably right that only 50-80,000 are NEW test takers, but that doesn't mean that the retakers re-test during the same year as their prior tests. In other words, the total number of different test takers in a given year is probably much greater than 50-80,000.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:12 pm

omninode wrote:Off topic I admit, but I'm curious...

No worries. I'm able to chat while lakers3peat gives me a hummer.

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Re: Is it worth it to take the test again?

Postby 2014 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:44 pm

omninode wrote:Off topic I admit, but I'm curious.

When we say 150,000 people take the test each year, do we really know this is 150,000 DIFFERENT people? Many people take the test multiple times. Is it possible that we are really talking about maybe 50-80,000 NEW test takers every year and the rest are retakers?

Fair point. Realistically I bet between 100,000-130,000 are unique. While the majority of TLSers take it multiple times, I imagine that most people do not.

I would still contend that most of those below the median LSAT score never end up in law school therefore making the median of those who are actually in law school far higher, probably closer to the overall 80% number than the overall 50% number.




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