Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

motiontodismiss
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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby motiontodismiss » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 pm

I'm a 150-160 scorer (that is, until yesterday-scored a 160) looking to put a 7 in the tens place and I can tell that Manhattan LSAT's approach seems to work for RC and LR. Especially for RC. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten past the third passage. This time, I got to all 4 though not all the questions. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten through all of the questions early on LR, at least without sacrificing accuracy. Last PT, I went through all of the questions just past the 30 minute warning and on one of the LR sections, I scored a -3. I only went through 4 of the 12 or so chapters in their LR book, and only halfway through their RC book. I expect to see much more improvement. Now if only that damn LG book would get here (bought through a different vendor 2 weeks ago, nothing)

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:52 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:I'm a 150-160 scorer (that is, until yesterday-scored a 160) looking to put a 7 in the tens place and I can tell that Manhattan LSAT's approach seems to work for RC and LR. Especially for RC. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten past the third passage. This time, I got to all 4 though not all the questions. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten through all of the questions early on LR, at least without sacrificing accuracy. Last PT, I went through all of the questions just past the 30 minute warning and on one of the LR sections, I scored a -3. I only went through 4 of the 12 or so chapters in their LR book, and only halfway through their RC book. I expect to see much more improvement. Now if only that damn LG book would get here (bought through a different vendor 2 weeks ago, nothing)


Did you just buy Manhattan LSAT's books or did you enroll in one of their courses/self study packages?

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby dtubin » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:57 pm

Ok, so people that are saying that BP is good stepping stone for getting into the 160's, how would it work if I did the following:


Take BP course (heard they also have a good RC type layout.

Use Atlas books (have all of them except the RC) in comparison? ( I have the books, thats why)

I mean, when it comes down to it, if you have the books, does it really matter to take the course? I'm really leaning towards BP because it would suit me better. But the way some people are making it seem, Atlas in some ways is a lot harder to grasp if you don't have the fundamentals down.

(I haven't taken a diagnostic yet and I'm concerned that I might be left in the rain with Atlas -- in terms of how they present material)

Dino
Last edited by dtubin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby AverageTutoring » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:58 pm

Sorry to engage in the derailment of this thread but I have to say, Kaplan is a monster! They own everything. Did you know they started 70 something universities? And here I was thinking that they were just another test prep company....they are massive!

I'm still in shock that I can get a law degree from the university of Kaplan....

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby motiontodismiss » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:01 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:I'm a 150-160 scorer (that is, until yesterday-scored a 160) looking to put a 7 in the tens place and I can tell that Manhattan LSAT's approach seems to work for RC and LR. Especially for RC. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten past the third passage. This time, I got to all 4 though not all the questions. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten through all of the questions early on LR, at least without sacrificing accuracy. Last PT, I went through all of the questions just past the 30 minute warning and on one of the LR sections, I scored a -3. I only went through 4 of the 12 or so chapters in their LR book, and only halfway through their RC book. I expect to see much more improvement. Now if only that damn LG book would get here (bought through a different vendor 2 weeks ago, nothing)


Did you just buy Manhattan LSAT's books or did you enroll in one of their courses/self study packages?


Just their books. Bought the Powerscore series and also an online course from Knewton. Atlas/Manhattan touches on some of the fundamentals that PS doesn't touch on enough IMO. It fits my style, but others may disagree. It really depends on how you work. 3 practice problem sets and a thorough look at their chapter on assumptions/flaw questions later, I went from -6 on assumption questions to -1 in the span of one PT. I saw myself catching assumptions that I used to miss before, and shifts in wording that I used to miss before, and gaps in the argument that I used to totally miss before, and on RC, I'm actually able to understand the big picture which allowed me to read faster and actually make good time (finish the first 2 passages by about the halfway mark).

I'm thinking the LSAT is as much about pattern recognition as reasoning.
Last edited by motiontodismiss on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby LSAT Blog » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:03 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Didn't intend to be humorous; just tired of these ridiculous promo threads for test prep companies by relatively new, or brand new, posters who start off by proclaiming that their post is not intended to promote any test prep company then do so ad nauseum by bad mouthing the best & most proven LSAT test prep companies available.


EbonyEsq has 100+ posts and joined nearly 3 months ago. That'd be a lot of effort for a shill.

AverageTutoring wrote:I'm still in shock that I can get a law degree from the university of Kaplan....


Yes, you can, but it's online-only.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:05 pm

dtubin wrote:Ok, so people that are saying that BP is good stepping stone for getting into the 160's, how would it work if I did the following:


Take BP course (heard they also have a good RC type layout.

Use Atlas books (have all of them except the RC) in comparison? ( I have the books, thats why)

I mean, when it comes down to it, if you have the books, does it really matter to take the course? I'm really leaning towards BP because it would suit me better. But the way some people are making it seem, Atlas in some ways is a lot harder to grasp if you don't have the fundamentals down.

(I haven't taken a diagnostic yet and I'm concerned that I might be left in the rain with Atlas -- in terms of how they present material)

Dino


Depends on your learning style but some prefer taking classes for structure and guidance and using that as a foundation to their self-study.

I think I'm leaning towards Atlas but don't think I'd start their prep course/self study material until early next year. I've already started a study schedule and will use the remaining months to work through the Powerscore Bibles and some of my old BP material to review the basics.

That said, I recall BP not getting to RC until near the end of their prep course. Not sure if things are now different, but not alot of time is dedicated to RC with BP so if its one of your weaker areas it may be best to grab a hold of Atlas' RC and start working on those alongside your LR/LG studies.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:09 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:I'm a 150-160 scorer (that is, until yesterday-scored a 160) looking to put a 7 in the tens place and I can tell that Manhattan LSAT's approach seems to work for RC and LR. Especially for RC. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten past the third passage. This time, I got to all 4 though not all the questions. Never on a past PT have I ever gotten through all of the questions early on LR, at least without sacrificing accuracy. Last PT, I went through all of the questions just past the 30 minute warning and on one of the LR sections, I scored a -3. I only went through 4 of the 12 or so chapters in their LR book, and only halfway through their RC book. I expect to see much more improvement. Now if only that damn LG book would get here (bought through a different vendor 2 weeks ago, nothing)


Did you just buy Manhattan LSAT's books or did you enroll in one of their courses/self study packages?


Just their books. Bought the Powerscore series and also an online course from Knewton. Atlas/Manhattan touches on some of the fundamentals that PS doesn't touch on enough IMO. It fits my style, but others may disagree. It really depends on how you work. 3 practice problem sets and a thorough look at their chapter on assumptions/flaw questions later, I went from -6 on assumption questions to -1 in the span of one PT. I saw myself catching assumptions that I used to miss before, and shifts in wording that I used to miss before, and gaps in the argument that I used to totally miss before, and on RC, I'm actually able to understand the big picture which allowed me to read faster and actually make good time (finish the first 2 passages by about the halfway mark).

I'm thinking the LSAT is as much about pattern recognition as reasoning.


I really appreciate you sharing your first-hand experience with Atlas/Manhattan LSAT. RC is also a weakness of mine so I'm happy to hear of your significant improvement and ability to to complete sections and get to the last RC passage. For what its worth, good luck to you. Keep at it and I'm sure you'll do just fine.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby AverageTutoring » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:10 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Didn't intend to be humorous; just tired of these ridiculous promo threads for test prep companies by relatively new, or brand new, posters who start off by proclaiming that their post is not intended to promote any test prep company then do so ad nauseum by bad mouthing the best & most proven LSAT test prep companies available.


EbonyEsq has 100+ posts and joined nearly 3 months ago. That'd be a lot of effort for a shill.

AverageTutoring wrote:I'm still in shock that I can get a law degree from the university of Kaplan....


Yes, you can, but it's online-only.


I know but still. They did 2.6 billion dollars in business last year, up from 2.3 in 2008. That's not a company. That's a monster. It's worth asking the question why Kaplan has such a bad reputation for its LSAT program if it is such a huge player in the test prep industry.

I mean, TPR only does 41 million in revenue each year.

uh...it's just crazy man.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:13 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:EbonyEsq has 100+ posts and joined nearly 3 months ago. That'd be a lot of effort for a shill.


For real.

LSAT Blog wrote:Yes, you can, but it's online-only.


There is also a physical Kaplan Law School in London, UK. It's affiliated with one of the better UK law schools (Nottingham Law) for those wishing to be UK barristers and solicitors. Some major law firms even recruit their graduates!

http://kaplan-law-school.kaplan.co.uk/p ... fault.aspx

I know this because I was at one point looking at studying law in the UK. Don't think I'd want the name Kaplan on my CV though, lol. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby LSAT Blog » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:18 pm

Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby The Gentleman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:19 pm

Honestly OP, success on the LSAT is 20% foundational knowledge (like LG diagramming, formal logic, conditional statements etc.) and 80% execution/applying it. You can learn the foundational stuff on your own using the PS Bibles, and prep courses aren't going to help you with execution. Don't waste your time and money. Just buy the PS Bibles and a bunch of PTs.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby The Gentleman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:21 pm

Ask ^^^ Steve ^^^ he'll set you straight.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:32 pm

The Gentleman wrote:Honestly OP, success on the LSAT is 20% foundational knowledge (like LG diagramming, formal logic, conditional statements etc.) and 80% execution/applying it. You can learn the foundational stuff on your own using the PS Bibles, and prep courses aren't going to help you with execution. Don't waste your time and money. Just buy the PS Bibles and a bunch of PTs.


Prep courses also help with the execution, not so? I also want to make sure I'm approaching the questions in the "correct" manner, "correct" in this instance meaning the ability to maxmize my chances of quickly identifying right from wrong and being able to think like the makers of the LSATs. Timing is just as important as accuracy for this exam.

I think prep courses can be the link between learning and applying what is learnt.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby AverageTutoring » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:35 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:
The Gentleman wrote:Honestly OP, success on the LSAT is 20% foundational knowledge (like LG diagramming, formal logic, conditional statements etc.) and 80% execution/applying it. You can learn the foundational stuff on your own using the PS Bibles, and prep courses aren't going to help you with execution. Don't waste your time and money. Just buy the PS Bibles and a bunch of PTs.


Prep courses also help with the execution, not so? I also want to make sure I'm approaching the questions in the "correct" manner, "correct" in this instance meaning the ability to maxmize my chances of quickly identifying right from wrong and being able to think like the makers of the LSATs. Timing is just as important as accuracy for this exam.

I think prep courses can be the link between learning and applying what is learnt.


I'm 100% in favour of a course but there is no "correct" way to approach a question. It's what works best for you and the only person who can figure that out for you is yourself.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby penguin » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:43 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


Probably, it's only me clicking the link wondering to see what kind of goldfish. hahaha :lol:
Kaplan is everywhere. Maybe I should look into buying their stocks.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby motiontodismiss » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:52 pm

penguin wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


Probably, it's only me clicking the link wondering to see what kind of goldfish. hahaha :lol:
Kaplan is everywhere. Maybe I should look into buying their stocks.


Kaplan itself is a WaPo subsidiary, and is privately held unfortunately. http://www.google.com/finance?cid=13161849

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:22 pm

I agree that buying the PowerScore Bibles & at least a dozen practice tests is the most flexible & most affordable method of LSAT preparation for those determined to achieve a high score.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby KevinP » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:09 pm

AverageTutoring wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Didn't intend to be humorous; just tired of these ridiculous promo threads for test prep companies by relatively new, or brand new, posters who start off by proclaiming that their post is not intended to promote any test prep company then do so ad nauseum by bad mouthing the best & most proven LSAT test prep companies available.


EbonyEsq has 100+ posts and joined nearly 3 months ago. That'd be a lot of effort for a shill.

AverageTutoring wrote:I'm still in shock that I can get a law degree from the university of Kaplan....


Yes, you can, but it's online-only.


I know but still. They did 2.6 billion dollars in business last year, up from 2.3 in 2008. That's not a company. That's a monster. It's worth asking the question why Kaplan has such a bad reputation for its LSAT program if it is such a huge player in the test prep industry.

I mean, TPR only does 41 million in revenue each year.

uh...it's just crazy man.


"Three former academic officers at Kaplan University, an arm of Kaplan, Inc., have filed a federal lawsuit that accuses the institution of defrauding the U.S. government out of more than $4 billion. "

I think the reason Kaplan's test prep sucks is that it is geared towards average test taker looking to barely break into high 150s/low 160s as there is much more of them around and hence more $$$.
Last edited by KevinP on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:16 pm

Not sure why this thread has turned into a discussion about Kaplan?

It was already established that Manhattan LSAT is in no way affiliated with Kaplan and its approach to teaching LSATs.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby LLB2JD » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:22 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


As a person that actually lives in the UK, I can say that employers/students are not prestige whores here compared to the US. Except you went to Oxford and Cambridge, you pretty much have a very good chance of landing a law firm job regardless of the school you attend as long as you have good grades.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:33 pm

LLB2JD wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


As a person that actually lives in the UK, I can say that employers/students are not prestige whores here compared to the US. Except you went to Oxford and Cambridge, you pretty much have a very good chance of landing a law firm job regardless of the school you attend as long as you have good grades.


Totally off topic but I disagree. Oxbridge, Notts, Birmingham, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Kings College, QUML, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen are often considered the top law schools in the UK. I do not think attending the LLB programme at Kingston University, for example, carries as equal weight.

Also take into consideration that the barrister route is a completely different kettle of fish where obtaining pupillage heavily depends on where you obtained First Class honours (ie preferably at Oxbridge).

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby LLB2JD » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:38 am

EbonyEsq wrote:
LLB2JD wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


As a person that actually lives in the UK, I can say that employers/students are not prestige whores here compared to the US. Except you went to Oxford and Cambridge, you pretty much have a very good chance of landing a law firm job regardless of the school you attend as long as you have good grades.


Totally off topic but I disagree. Oxbridge, Notts, Birmingham, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Kings College, QUML, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen are often considered the top law schools in the UK. I do not think attending the LLB programme at Kingston University, for example, carries as equal weight.

Also take into consideration that the barrister route is a completely different kettle of fish where obtaining pupillage heavily depends on where you obtained First Class honours (ie preferably at Oxbridge).


I never said prestige does not count at all, but compared to the US, it does not even come close. If you graduate from with a First Class from Kingston, you'll definitely get a placement for the LPC and you have a better than 50% chance to land something at a top law firm.
Being a Barrister, like you said, is a totally different ball game. And you just validated my argument with your statement above.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby EbonyEsq » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:41 am

LLB2JD wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:
LLB2JD wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:Wow - was not aware they had a physical law school in Britain. Love the goldfish on their homepage.

Maybe Kaplan has a better reputation on the British TLS... (top-law-schools.co.uk, anyone?)


As a person that actually lives in the UK, I can say that employers/students are not prestige whores here compared to the US. Except you went to Oxford and Cambridge, you pretty much have a very good chance of landing a law firm job regardless of the school you attend as long as you have good grades.


Totally off topic but I disagree. Oxbridge, Notts, Birmingham, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Kings College, QUML, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen are often considered the top law schools in the UK. I do not think attending the LLB programme at Kingston University, for example, carries as equal weight.

Also take into consideration that the barrister route is a completely different kettle of fish where obtaining pupillage heavily depends on where you obtained First Class honours (ie preferably at Oxbridge).


I never said prestige does not count at all, but compared to the US, it does not even come close. If you graduate from with a First Class from Kingston, you'll definitely get a placement for the LPC and you have a better than 50% chance to land something at a top law firm.
Being a Barrister, like you said, is a totally different ball game. And you just validated my argument with your statement above.


Employers/students ARE just as much prestige whores in the UK as they are in the US, especially so for those studying the BPTC/BVC.

Case closed.

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Re: Atlas/Manhattan LSAT v. BP

Postby motiontodismiss » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:08 am

AverageTutoring wrote:I'm 100% in favour of a course but there is no "correct" way to approach a question. It's what works best for you and the only person who can figure that out for you is yourself.


The correct way to approach a questions is whatever way that leads to the right answer. If using tarot cards gets you a 180, so be it.




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