maxed out - throw in the towel?

09042014
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:07 pm

Ragged wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
kkklick wrote:I'm a big believer that most people, when cultivated correctly, can be just as smart as the next guy even though they may have to put forth that extra effort. I find that for the most part people just don't care enough.


No.


Don't have much basis to support this, but I bet diviation in our physical and mental capabilities are minute compared to the progress that can be achieved through repetition and practice. So I tend to agree with klick on this.

Not that there aren't any retards or geniuses out there, but for the most part we all have about the same potential.


Most people do have roughly the same ability. The IQ distribution is a normal one. And most people probably can't score a 170 on the LSAT, no matter how much they tried.

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incompetentia
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby incompetentia » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:19 pm

To be fair, the TLS average/median will be nowhere close to 150. I bet among the regular posters we're pretty close to 170...so it seems like 170 is reachable for everybody.

fosterp
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby fosterp » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:36 pm

2011Law wrote:
fosterp wrote:Only recently have I been able to consistently get -1/0 on LR.


Mind if I ask what you did to get that? Only when untimed (~45 min) have I avg'd -2 per LR.


Sort of a combination of factors. When I first started PTs I was getting like 4/6 wrong per LR section, and the reasons generally were getting caught up on some harder questions, and wasting too much time on them, and just generally over thinking a lot of the stuff, and getting rushed through the last 6 or so, resulting in more missed points.

Its pretty much consistent practice that has led me to be able to answer a lot of the questions with instinct. Having to "reason" with myself to justify an answer was just a lot of time wasting, and it seemed easier to justify why the other ones weren't correct. I always try to plow through the first 10 in 10 minutes, and don't allow myself more than a minute for any of those first 10. If I am unsure I just mark it. Same goes for the later questions (though I allow myself more time), if I'm not too sure of an answer I'll just mark a guess and move on. I usually end up with about 5 minutes or so at the end of the section and its usually enough to review the ones I marked, and the "second through" seems to help solidify an answer a lot.

09042014
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:37 pm

incompetentia wrote:To be fair, the TLS average/median will be nowhere close to 150. I bet among the regular posters we're pretty close to 170...so it seems like 170 is reachable for everybody.


You aren't considering several things, like shame at having a poor score, a website like TOP law schools attracts a different clientele, etc etc. And I don't buy that the average LSAT even on TLS is 170. Too many TTT threads on here for that to be true.

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incompetentia
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby incompetentia » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
incompetentia wrote:To be fair, the TLS average/median will be nowhere close to 150. I bet among the regular posters we're pretty close to 170...so it seems like 170 is reachable for everybody.


You aren't considering several things, like shame at having a poor score, a website like TOP law schools attracts a different clientele, etc etc. And I don't buy that the average LSAT even on TLS is 170. Too many TTT threads on here for that to be true.

You misinterpreted my post. I meant not that I thought 170 was reachable for everybody, but rather that the perception among some people IS that 170 is reachable for everybody. I am fully aware that most all groups of people anywhere that's not YLS or HLS will not have quite what is needed for a 170 average...

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BruceWayne
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:13 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Actually, a lot of it is that. Many people simply will not be able to score in the top 2% regardless of how much work they put in.

Not a big deal, the world needs truck drivers, receptionists, garbage men, etc.


Yes, because clearly someone who is "only" scoring in the 90th percentile is only capable of being a truck driver, receptionist, garbage man etc. and is obviously not able to handle the incredibly complex subjects taught in the first year of law school. :roll:

HeavenWood
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:20 pm

3|ink wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
kkklick wrote:I'm a big believer that most people, when cultivated correctly, can be just as smart as the next guy even though they may have to put forth that extra effort. I find that for the most part people just don't care enough.


No.


The typical 'smart guy' wants to believe that only some are 170 material so he can feel special. It would almost be a credible belief if it were not so self-serving.

The winner of 'nature vs. nurture' is inconclusive (at least for now). Anyone who says differently is probably just feeding his/her own ego.
.


Almost anyone can improve with practice, but most everyone has a ceiling, whether that ceiling is 175, 165, or 155. I'm not saying people should give up when the test gives them a little trouble. I am saying there comes a point when people should accept their own limitations.

I'm not saying this to feed my ego or make myself feel special. I averaged 163 on PTs, and probably got close to the same score on test day (perhaps a "high" score by layman's standards, but definitely on the low end for TLSers). I know I studied my ass off to get that score. I also know I am not unintelligent or inadequate (I didn't earn a 3.9+ UGPA by mistake). But I do know that when it comes to the LSAT, I am no superstar. Many other people are the same way.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:27 pm

I don't see why the idea that the LSAT isn't completely learnable is offensive to anyone. I plateaued around the mid-high 160's and that's where I stayed, with some variation on two test attempts. I suspect if I'd had a 24/7 tutor and done every published test and another course, I would have added, at most, two more points. A number of people from the recent test have said that the LSAT is going to be less predictable and less 'learnable' in the near future. I see that as a good thing.

There is too much test prep, too much focus on learning the test. If you are brilliant and not a good test taker, you are better off finding a unique and productive way to express that brilliance and talent, not spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours learning the test. It will not only improve your long-term success in the field, but it will make you a far happier person. I should add that I am staunchly against the T14-or-bust mindset. I think there are many good T1 schools that offer a wealth of opportunities and that at your level you will be able to find one in a market or academic specialty you like.

Regardless of whether you decide to keep prepping or just do something else, you should stay positive and stay productive.

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omninode
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby omninode » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Let's keep in mind, 160 is not the end of the world (keep telling myself this as I wait for October scores). 160 can get you into a good mid- to lower-Tier 1 school. If that's not enough for you, work hard your first year and maybe you'll be in a position to transfer up. Whatever you do, don't kill yourself because you can't crack 170. The fact that you even had the balls to take the LSAT (you would be surprised how many people I know who "want to go to law school" but can't get their shit together to actually register and study for the test), means you're already better off than most of the pathetic saps in this country.

gambelda
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Re: maxed out - throw in the towel?

Postby gambelda » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:30 am

Sorry it took me so long to get back to everyone on this topic. I had to fly out to Pittsburgh to work with a client this week.

I think some people make good points that a 170 isn't possible for some people. Fortunately, I don't believe that is at all my case. I graduated in 3 and a half years from a very good state school with a 3.92 GPA and I don't think I ever picked up a class book my entire college career. College felt rather like a joke in all honesty.

I think some people make good points... a -14 on LR probably means that there are some underlying issues that I have not addressed when I return to the questions after taking a preptest.

I think the gameplan is to do what a few have suggested...go through every single question, not just the ones I have gotten wrong, and understand why each answer is correct.

I take the exam in December. Started studying the 1st of August for the September exam but pushed it back to December by taking an absence. Just could not allocate enough time to studying with my work.

EDIT: So people understand my goals, its T10 or bust in my mind. 3.92 GPA, work experience, I figure a 168+ gets me in to a T10. That's why breaking 170 is my goal




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