Overheard at the LSAT

JazzyMac
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby JazzyMac » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:49 am

bmathers wrote:Damn, 2 observations with this thread:

1) Some of this stuff is incredibly funny

2) DAMN, there are some extremely pompous attitudes posting in this thread! Some of us need to chill out, stop being so judgmental of other people aiming for scores that may not be what YOU are looking for, and take that stick out of your @$$. Just remember, there are students at these "toilet schools" that WILL be making more money than you someday, and living a more enjoyable life - I guarantee it. You are a rookie, at best, chill out and cut down your ego just a bit. None of us are God's gift to the world - just a bit of reality. If someone has a goal of 150, that's awesome, good for them. I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150. You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.

That is all, carry on.


+1

CicBob17
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby CicBob17 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:39 am

North wrote:
bmathers wrote:Damn, 2 observations with this thread:

1) Some of this stuff is incredibly funny

2) DAMN, there are some extremely pompous attitudes posting in this thread! Some of us need to chill out, stop being so judgmental of other people aiming for scores that may not be what YOU are looking for, and take that stick out of your @$$. Just remember, there are students at these "toilet schools" that WILL be making more money than you someday, and living a more enjoyable life - I guarantee it. You are a rookie, at best, chill out and cut down your ego just a bit. None of us are God's gift to the world - just a bit of reality. If someone has a goal of 150, that's awesome, good for them. I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150. You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.

That is all, carry on.

New, insightful stuff in this post

+1

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lizzielemon
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby lizzielemon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:43 am

JazzyMac wrote:
bmathers wrote:Damn, 2 observations with this thread:

1) Some of this stuff is incredibly funny

2) DAMN, there are some extremely pompous attitudes posting in this thread! Some of us need to chill out, stop being so judgmental of other people aiming for scores that may not be what YOU are looking for, and take that stick out of your @$$. Just remember, there are students at these "toilet schools" that WILL be making more money than you someday, and living a more enjoyable life - I guarantee it. You are a rookie, at best, chill out and cut down your ego just a bit. None of us are God's gift to the world - just a bit of reality. If someone has a goal of 150, that's awesome, good for them. I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150. You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.

That is all, carry on.


+1


+2

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby SplitMyPants » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:14 pm

bmathers wrote:You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.


Totally—if low beginner gainz could bring on $250k of unserviceable debt.

bmathers wrote:I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150.


Also, the fact that you felt urged to include this means you need to get off your high horse.

GreatBraffsby
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby GreatBraffsby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:50 pm

bmathers wrote:Damn, 2 observations with this thread:

1) Some of this stuff is incredibly funny

2) DAMN, there are some extremely pompous attitudes posting in this thread! Some of us need to chill out, stop being so judgmental of other people aiming for scores that may not be what YOU are looking for, and take that stick out of your @$$. Just remember, there are students at these "toilet schools" that WILL be making more money than you someday, and living a more enjoyable life - I guarantee it. You are a rookie, at best, chill out and cut down your ego just a bit. None of us are God's gift to the world - just a bit of reality. If someone has a goal of 150, that's awesome, good for them. I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150. You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.

That is all, carry on.


I disagree. If someone has a goal of 150, the odds are very high that they don't understand what doors that will open for them. Without career/family ties or significant work experience, a score lower than 160 means they likely won't get into a state flagship or the t-14. Furthermore, their odds of getting a scholarship are minimal.

This isn't being judgmental, pompous, or neurotic. It's dealing with facts. LSAT score and GPA are very strong determinants of your school and scholarship, which in turn influence your odds of success. Of course some people beat the odds, but that doesn't make playing the lottery a sound investment. Saying you need a 160+ isn't like telling someone that their hobbies are just as good as someone else's, but more like helping them avoid financial and professional suicide.

Telling someone with a 150 that it is ok to spend hundred of thousands of dollars, as well as 3 years, on the schools available to them is flat out wrong. I think allowing someone to take the test with an unscrutinized goal of a 150 is a disservice under the guise of being accepting. Law school is an expensive, long term commitment, and a score of 150 can equate to spending a significant portion of your life in debt for minimal reward.

I really don't understand what you mean by posters being "rookies" or having egos. What I just wrote is backed up with well-documented acceptance employment statistics, in addition to expert testimony. The advice of getting the highest possible LSAT score in order to either attend one of the few schools that actually provides acceptable return on investment or to get a hefty discount on a regional school is unimpeachable in the case of most, if not all, applicants. So is the fact that if a 150 is your best possible score, you should strongly reconsider your choice to attend law school.

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bmathers
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby bmathers » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:03 pm

Preparing and doing well on the LSAT is obviously fairly important - however, I was just very turned off by the elitism in this thread. Not scoring at an elite level and attending an elite school is not the end-all be-all of having a successful law career. I personally know a few millionaires and county judges who attended lowly ranked, or unranked schools.

Who you know is more important than what you know. Network, network, network and secure good summer internships. Are the doors as widely opened at a ~100-rank school vs a T14? Of coarse not, but your career is not doomed if you do not attend a top school.

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby HennessyVSOP » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:13 pm

newcareernewtown wrote:
TheWalkingDebt wrote:
"I didn't study, because it is about logic and at this point you either are good at logic or not and can't really improve that"


Funny, but kinda true if you think about it...


Yeah agreed - half the people take the test get under a 150 and some of them studied, it's not like the other half all studied their asses off. How many 179 stories do you read about from people who took maybe two or three practice tests? I think people are either apt at LSAT-type problem solving or they aren't.

Smc1994
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby Smc1994 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:18 pm

HennessyVSOP wrote:
newcareernewtown wrote:
TheWalkingDebt wrote:
"I didn't study, because it is about logic and at this point you either are good at logic or not and can't really improve that"


Funny, but kinda true if you think about it...


Yeah agreed - half the people take the test get under a 150 and some of them studied, it's not like the other half all studied their asses off. How many 179 stories do you read about from people who took maybe two or three practice tests? I think people are either apt at LSAT-type problem solving or they aren't.


Seconded. I know it's not a 179, but I managed a 176 with less than a month of studying. I think that certain upbringings -- parents or close relatives who are lawyers -- can help prepare someone for the type of thinking that the LSAT requires.

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landshoes
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby landshoes » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:46 pm

about a gazillion people on this site upped their scores substantially after studying

my score went up 6 points which took me from about the 25%ile for my school to about the 75%ile

Smc1994 wrote:
HennessyVSOP wrote:
newcareernewtown wrote:
TheWalkingDebt wrote:
"I didn't study, because it is about logic and at this point you either are good at logic or not and can't really improve that"


Funny, but kinda true if you think about it...


Yeah agreed - half the people take the test get under a 150 and some of them studied, it's not like the other half all studied their asses off. How many 179 stories do you read about from people who took maybe two or three practice tests? I think people are either apt at LSAT-type problem solving or they aren't.


Seconded. I know it's not a 179, but I managed a 176 with less than a month of studying. I think that certain upbringings -- parents or close relatives who are lawyers -- can help prepare someone for the type of thinking that the LSAT requires.


if upbringings can prepare you, why wouldn't studying prepare you...

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby HennessyVSOP » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:00 pm

landshoes wrote:about a gazillion people on this site upped their scores substantially after studying

my score went up 6 points which took me from about the 25%ile for my school to about the 75%ile

Smc1994 wrote:
HennessyVSOP wrote:
newcareernewtown wrote:
TheWalkingDebt wrote:
"I didn't study, because it is about logic and at this point you either are good at logic or not and can't really improve that"


Funny, but kinda true if you think about it...


Yeah agreed - half the people take the test get under a 150 and some of them studied, it's not like the other half all studied their asses off. How many 179 stories do you read about from people who took maybe two or three practice tests? I think people are either apt at LSAT-type problem solving or they aren't.


Seconded. I know it's not a 179, but I managed a 176 with less than a month of studying. I think that certain upbringings -- parents or close relatives who are lawyers -- can help prepare someone for the type of thinking that the LSAT requires.


if upbringings can prepare you, why wouldn't studying prepare you...


+20 yrs. of being trained to think critically and recognize patterns vs. 3 months of cramming how to figure out one question-type from another. If you don't have the first one, the second one can only help to an extent. No one scores a 180 without natural talent; you can't game a 180.

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landshoes
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby landshoes » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:07 pm

natural talent doesn't come from upbringing though so why call it "natural talent"

I agree that natural talent is a factor but then when you're like "has a family of lawyers and therefore is exposed to the method of thinking" I find it a lot more sketchy as an argument

especially since we have substantial evidence that the LSAT is very learnable over a relatively short period of time (within limits, obviously)

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FairchildFLT
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby FairchildFLT » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:11 pm

I like how the point of this thread was to talk about funny things overheard at the LSAT and it has devolved into a dick measuring contest. Lawyers, amirite?

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby HennessyVSOP » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:38 am

FairchildFLT wrote:I like how the point of this thread was to talk about funny things overheard at the LSAT and it has devolved into a dick measuring contest. Lawyers, amirite?


we ain't lawyers yet, just argumentative and anxiety-ridden

anyway the other day I was talking to another June-taker who told me his tutor assured him the unscored section would have a cover-page stamped "UNSCORED"

guy needs his money back

CicBob17
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby CicBob17 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:46 am

HennessyVSOP wrote:
FairchildFLT wrote:I like how the point of this thread was to talk about funny things overheard at the LSAT and it has devolved into a dick measuring contest. Lawyers, amirite?


we ain't lawyers yet, just argumentative and anxiety-ridden

anyway the other day I was talking to another June-taker who told me his tutor assured him the unscored section would have a cover-page stamped "UNSCORED"

guy needs his money back

maybe its so he wont chill on any section thinking its unscored because he'll be waiting for that big cover page to slack off

CPAlawHopefu
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby CPAlawHopefu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:12 pm

GreatBraffsby wrote:
bmathers wrote:Damn, 2 observations with this thread:

1) Some of this stuff is incredibly funny

2) DAMN, there are some extremely pompous attitudes posting in this thread! Some of us need to chill out, stop being so judgmental of other people aiming for scores that may not be what YOU are looking for, and take that stick out of your @$$. Just remember, there are students at these "toilet schools" that WILL be making more money than you someday, and living a more enjoyable life - I guarantee it. You are a rookie, at best, chill out and cut down your ego just a bit. None of us are God's gift to the world - just a bit of reality. If someone has a goal of 150, that's awesome, good for them. I personally would dread a 150, but that's only because my goal is not to get a 150. You remind me of those young, weak newbies at the gym staring in the mirror and making fun of others, judging them.

That is all, carry on.


I disagree. If someone has a goal of 150, the odds are very high that they don't understand what doors that will open for them. Without career/family ties or significant work experience, a score lower than 160 means they likely won't get into a state flagship or the t-14. Furthermore, their odds of getting a scholarship are minimal.

This isn't being judgmental, pompous, or neurotic. It's dealing with facts. LSAT score and GPA are very strong determinants of your school and scholarship, which in turn influence your odds of success. Of course some people beat the odds, but that doesn't make playing the lottery a sound investment. Saying you need a 160+ isn't like telling someone that their hobbies are just as good as someone else's, but more like helping them avoid financial and professional suicide.

Telling someone with a 150 that it is ok to spend hundred of thousands of dollars, as well as 3 years, on the schools available to them is flat out wrong. I think allowing someone to take the test with an unscrutinized goal of a 150 is a disservice under the guise of being accepting. Law school is an expensive, long term commitment, and a score of 150 can equate to spending a significant portion of your life in debt for minimal reward.

[quote[I really don't understand what you mean by posters being "rookies" or having egos. What I just wrote is backed up with well-documented acceptance employment statistics, in addition to expert testimony. The advice of getting the highest possible LSAT score in order to either attend one of the few schools that actually provides acceptable return on investment or to get a hefty discount on a regional school is unimpeachable in the case of most, if not all, applicants. So is the fact that if a 150 is your best possible score, you should strongly reconsider your choice to attend law school.


lol yes it is. The fact that your facts are straight does not prevent you from coming off as "judgmental, pompous, and neurotic." You can have the most accurate data to support your case and still come off as a pompous asshat based on the way you express your views.

And he is correct in saying that you are just a rookie. No first-hand experience in a formal legal hiring process (part-time jobs off craigslist do not count) and the fact that you must resort to third-party statistics and testimonies to back up your case does make you a rookie. Spending few months on an online forum and reviewing LST data does not suddenly boost your status from a rookie to a seasoned consultant in legal career when you haven't even started first year in law school.

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby HennessyVSOP » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:29 pm

CPAlawHopefu wrote:
lol yes it is. The fact that your facts are straight does not prevent you from coming off as "judgmental, pompous, and neurotic." You can have the most accurate data to support your case and still come off as a pompous asshat based on the way you express your views.

And he is correct in saying that you are just a rookie. No first-hand experience in a formal legal hiring process (part-time jobs off craigslist do not count) and the fact that you must resort to third-party statistics and testimonies to back up your case does make you a rookie. Spending few months on an online forum and reviewing LST data does not suddenly boost your status from a rookie to a seasoned consultant in legal career when you haven't even started first year in law school.


u okay bruh? u need a hug?

Winter is Coming
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby Winter is Coming » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:33 pm

Love the skepticism on using "third-party statistics." As in using objective, concrete data is somehow worse than anecdotes that the "rookies" don't have.

GreatBraffsby
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby GreatBraffsby » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Love the skepticism on using "third-party statistics." As in using objective, concrete data is somehow worse than anecdotes that the "rookies" don't have.


+1. Tell me again how medians and employment reports published by the schools themselves are "third party". Law schools themselves issue data screaming "this is a risky investment" and make it clear what gpa/scores will likely get you wait listed (25th%), accepted (median) and money (75th% and up).

LSN, LST and this site are helpful tools, but the official stats and costs are all you need to understand why a high LSAT score is imperative.
Last edited by GreatBraffsby on Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tsujimoto74
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby tsujimoto74 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:46 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Love the skepticism on using "third-party statistics." As in using objective, concrete data is somehow worse than anecdotes that the "rookies" don't have.


Always remember: the plural of anecdote is data!
I'm here to help.
/sarcasm

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby HennessyVSOP » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:13 pm

GreatBraffsby wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:Love the skepticism on using "third-party statistics." As in using objective, concrete data is somehow worse than anecdotes that the "rookies" don't have.


+1. Tell me again how medians and employment reports published by the schools themselves are "third party". Law schools themselves issue data screaming "this is a risky investment" and make it clear what gpa/scores will likely get you wait listed (25th%), accepted (median) and money (75th% and up).

LSN, LST and this site are helpful tools, but the official stats and costs are all you need to understand why a high LSAT score is imperative.


+2. Using the goal of a 150 LSAT score for any school is pretty obviously stupid, whether you think law school stats are "third party" or not. This isn't t14, this is t200. If you are applying to any law school, whether it's YLS or Pennsylvania Dutch Barn University, your 150 is worth no scholarship money.

"pompous" "neurotic" LOL get a grip, don't encourage people to willingly go deeply into debt that they could easily avoid

GreatBraffsby
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby GreatBraffsby » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:39 pm

HennessyVSOP wrote:
+2. Using the goal of a 150 LSAT score for any school is pretty obviously stupid, whether you think law school stats are "third party" or not. This isn't t14, this is t200. If you are applying to any law school, whether it's YLS or Pennsylvania Dutch Barn University, your 150 is worth no scholarship money.

"pompous" "neurotic" LOL get a grip, don't encourage people to willingly go deeply into debt that they could easily avoid


+180 for Pennsylvania Dutch Barn University.

CPAlawHopefu
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby CPAlawHopefu » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:26 pm

ITT: People do not understand what "attitude" means.

Hint: Attitude has nothing to do with how much factual data you have. You may have an encyclopedic knowledge of every topic known to mankind under your belt, that still doesn't give you any immunity over what massive ego you have.


Also: You are still just a rookie. Just because you know what median is needed to get into xyz school and are able to pull employment data by clicking on its career profile link does not certify you as a law school expert :lol: give me a fking break :lol: :lol: :lol:

GreatBraffsby
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby GreatBraffsby » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:39 pm

CPAlawHopefu wrote:ITT: People do not understand what "attitude" means.

Hint: Attitude has nothing to do with how much factual data you have. You may have an encyclopedic knowledge of every topic known to mankind under your belt, that still doesn't give you any immunity over what massive ego you have.


Also: You are still just a rookie. Just because you know what median is needed to get into xyz school and are able to pull employment data by clicking on its career profile link does not certify you as a law school expert :lol: give me a fking break :lol: :lol: :lol:


I think the disagreement is if telling someone that it doesn't make sense to go to law school with a low LSAT score is judgmental in itself. I don't think it's necessarily rude to tell someone their goals are unrealistic or they're about to make a bad investment. In my opinion, this forum is pretty charitable in that it strongly tries to dissuade people from making bad decisions. Of course tone can make someone pompous, but I don't think the act of telling a painful truth is anything less than a kindness.

Like I said before, I still don't know what "rookie" is supposed to mean. Obviously not many of us are hiring professionals or law school employees, which I guess technically makes us amateurs. But I think that's a high standard for someone being able to give valuable input.

I hope your post was intentional trolling, because it expressed a terrible "attitude" towards other posters.

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Hikikomorist
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby Hikikomorist » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:13 pm

WTF happened to this thread?

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nicknar
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Re: Overheard at the LSAT

Postby nicknar » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:42 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:WTF happened to this thread?


A chain of different groups of people have been carrying on the same argument about whether it's pompous to make fun of people who haven't prepared for the LSAT for like six years. It's actually kind of amazing when you think about it. A torch whose eternal flame of neuroses is passed from one generation to the next.




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