162 Timed, 177 Untimed

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GoldenGloves
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162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby GoldenGloves » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:31 am

Hi everyone, I've been using what I feel is a great method that I read about on these forums. I take a PT timed then, without checking any answers beforehand, spend as much time as I need to redo a clean copy of the same exam. I then review both exams and type thorough explanations for incorrect and troublesome questions.

My progress thus far:
Superprep A: 155 (timed); no untimed effort
Superprep C: 159 (timed); 178 (untimed)
PT 40: 162 (timed); 177 (untimed)

What can I do to alleviate the difference between my timed and untimed scores? I'm scheduled to take the exam in October, and plan to do PTs 43-60 between now and that time, employing the method mentioned.

Thanks for your help.
Last edited by GoldenGloves on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

PostHawk
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby PostHawk » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am

When you take it timed you might try something like giving yourself 40minutes/section then the next test 39 then 38 and so on as low as you can go while still maintaining accuracy. Judging solely by your score it seems you're probably missing small details when trying to go fast which could be why there's such a large discrepancy between your scores. Are you making it all the way through the end of each section or is there a certain section that gives you the most trouble?

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GoldenGloves
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby GoldenGloves » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:45 am

I can complete LR and RC, but usually feel quite rushed. With LG, I have not been able to finish, although I can get all the answers correct when I rework each game untimed.

justadude55
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:18 am

GoldenGloves wrote:Hi everyone, I've been using what I feel is a great method that I read about on these forums. I take a PT timed then, without checking any answers beforehand, spend as much time as I need to redo a clean copy of the same exam. I then review both exams and type thorough explanations for incorrect and troublesome questions.

My progress thus far:
Superprep A: 155 (timed); no untimed effort
Superprep C: 159 (timed); 178 (untimed)
PT 40: 162 (timed); 177 (untimed)

What can I do to alleviate the difference between my timed and untimed scores? I'm scheduled to take the exam in October, and plan to do PTs 43-60 between now and that time, employing the method mentioned.

Thanks for your help.


It's a month before the test, man. You should not have a 20 point discrepancy timed vs. untimed. For me it was maybe 3-5 points, but maybe I'm the rarity so who knows.

Anyway, there is clearly something off about how you are approaching the games. You can pick up speed in LR and RC with practice, but if you have a 15 pt discrepancy in games alone when you're timed, practice by itself won't cure that before the test. You need to set up the game properly, write out the rules in a coherent matter and use the rules to make deductions off the top.

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jr1886
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby jr1886 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:25 am

PT15 159 timed
PT15 176 untimed
PT29 158 timed
PT29 171 untimed
PT30 160 timed
PT30 169 untimed
PT31 160 timed
PT31 176 untimed
PT32 167 timed
PT32 176 untimed
PT33 166 timed
PT33 173 untimed
PT34 159 timed
PT34 172 Untimed

As you can see i suffer from the same discrepancy as you when taking the PTs using SOS's method. I have taken a break from using this method, however, as it requires a lot of time for the untimed section to focus rather on individual sections. LG is my biggest issue missing -12 on average. I think it is a fine method but at some point,closer to Oct. 09, you might want to focus on just timing by ditching this method. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=111839

justadude55
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:36 am

jr1886 wrote:PT15 159 timed
PT15 176 untimed
PT29 158 timed
PT29 171 untimed
PT30 160 timed
PT30 169 untimed
PT31 160 timed
PT31 176 untimed
PT32 167 timed
PT32 176 untimed
PT33 166 timed
PT33 173 untimed
PT34 159 timed
PT34 172 Untimed

As you can see i suffer from the same discrepancy as you when taking the PTs using SOS's method. I have taken a break from using this method, however, as it requires a lot of time for the untimed section to focus rather on individual sections. LG is my biggest issue missing -12 on average. I think it is a fine method but at some point,closer to Oct. 09, you might want to focus on just timing by ditching this method. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=111839


i think it's about time you start trying to balance it out by cutting your time, and cutting those discrepancies in half. while, you might get an extra 15 seconds on test day to bubble in answers, there's also a good chance they'll cut you a minute short. accuracy is only half the battle. you're a 159, not a 172 as unfortunate as that might sound.

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jr1886
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby jr1886 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:43 am

justadude55 wrote:
jr1886 wrote:PT15 159 timed
PT15 176 untimed
PT29 158 timed
PT29 171 untimed
PT30 160 timed
PT30 169 untimed
PT31 160 timed
PT31 176 untimed
PT32 167 timed
PT32 176 untimed
PT33 166 timed
PT33 173 untimed
PT34 159 timed
PT34 172 Untimed

As you can see i suffer from the same discrepancy as you when taking the PTs using SOS's method. I have taken a break from using this method, however, as it requires a lot of time for the untimed section to focus rather on individual sections. LG is my biggest issue missing -12 on average. I think it is a fine method but at some point,closer to Oct. 09, you might want to focus on just timing by ditching this method. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=111839


i think it's about time you start trying to balance it out by cutting your time, and cutting those discrepancies in half. while, you might get an extra 15 seconds on test day to bubble in answers, there's also a good chance they'll cut you a minute short. accuracy is only half the battle. you're a 159, not a 172 as unfortunate as that might sound.

That was my point to OP. At some point in his prep, he will need to start focusing almost entirely on timing which I have started to do. My last two PTs, 35 and 36 were solely timed and I scored 160, 165 respectively

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GoldenGloves
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby GoldenGloves » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:47 am

justadude55 wrote:
GoldenGloves wrote:Hi everyone, I've been using what I feel is a great method that I read about on these forums. I take a PT timed then, without checking any answers beforehand, spend as much time as I need to redo a clean copy of the same exam. I then review both exams and type thorough explanations for incorrect and troublesome questions.

My progress thus far:
Superprep A: 155 (timed); no untimed effort
Superprep C: 159 (timed); 178 (untimed)
PT 40: 162 (timed); 177 (untimed)

What can I do to alleviate the difference between my timed and untimed scores? I'm scheduled to take the exam in October, and plan to do PTs 43-60 between now and that time, employing the method mentioned.

Thanks for your help.


It's a month before the test, man. You should not have a 20 point discrepancy timed vs. untimed. For me it was maybe 3-5 points, but maybe I'm the rarity so who knows.

Anyway, there is clearly something off about how you are approaching the games. You can pick up speed in LR and RC with practice, but if you have a 15 pt discrepancy in games alone when you're timed, practice by itself won't cure that before the test. You need to set up the game properly, write out the rules in a coherent matter and use the rules to make deductions off the top.


I don't have a 15 point discrepancy in games alone. I miss at most 5 questions when I'm unable to complete games sections.

justadude55
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:53 am

GoldenGloves wrote:
justadude55 wrote:
GoldenGloves wrote:Hi everyone, I've been using what I feel is a great method that I read about on these forums. I take a PT timed then, without checking any answers beforehand, spend as much time as I need to redo a clean copy of the same exam. I then review both exams and type thorough explanations for incorrect and troublesome questions.

My progress thus far:
Superprep A: 155 (timed); no untimed effort
Superprep C: 159 (timed); 178 (untimed)
PT 40: 162 (timed); 177 (untimed)

What can I do to alleviate the difference between my timed and untimed scores? I'm scheduled to take the exam in October, and plan to do PTs 43-60 between now and that time, employing the method mentioned.

Thanks for your help.


It's a month before the test, man. You should not have a 20 point discrepancy timed vs. untimed. For me it was maybe 3-5 points, but maybe I'm the rarity so who knows.

Anyway, there is clearly something off about how you are approaching the games. You can pick up speed in LR and RC with practice, but if you have a 15 pt discrepancy in games alone when you're timed, practice by itself won't cure that before the test. You need to set up the game properly, write out the rules in a coherent matter and use the rules to make deductions off the top.


I don't have a 15 point discrepancy in games alone. I miss at most 5 questions when I'm unable to complete games sections.


try predicting the answers in LR. never spend 2 minutes on a q unless it's a parallel reasoning or parallel flaw question. on every non-inference question, make sure your train of thought revolves around the conclusion to speed yourself up. no reason an assumption question should take you >1 minute. inference questions take a bit longer, because it's harder to predict what the conclusion is.
Last edited by justadude55 on Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby MrKappus » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:56 am

jr1886 wrote:PT15 159 timed
PT15 176 untimed
PT29 158 timed
PT29 171 untimed
PT30 160 timed
PT30 169 untimed
PT31 160 timed
PT31 176 untimed
PT32 167 timed
PT32 176 untimed
PT33 166 timed
PT33 173 untimed
PT34 159 timed
PT34 172 Untimed

As you can see i suffer from the same discrepancy as you when taking the PTs using SOS's method. I have taken a break from using this method, however, as it requires a lot of time for the untimed section to focus rather on individual sections. LG is my biggest issue missing -12 on average. I think it is a fine method but at some point,closer to Oct. 09, you might want to focus on just timing by ditching this method. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=111839


You take the same PT twice?? Don't you remember the questions?

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sophia.olive
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby sophia.olive » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 am

um................ Am I missing something here.
Of course there is a huge jump.
You are actually taking the test. score________
Then you are going over the same test you just looked at so you recognize everything and you don't even time yourself. score +20 points.

Why would you think taking a test again and untimed in anyway reflects your ability. The point of retaking should be to pick up on the subtleties that you generally miss, and not as an indicator of your ability. Why score it in the first place. I think your focus is misdirected.

Focus on doing well the first time by incorporating what you did wrong before, don't try to close the gap that you feel shouldn't be there because of some fanciful score.

justadude55
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:03 am

sophia.olive wrote:um................ Am I missing something here.
Of course there is a huge jump.
You are actually taking the test. score________
Then you are going over the same test you just looked at so you recognize everything and you don't even time yourself. score +20 points.

Why would you think taking a test again and untimed in anyway reflects your ability. The point of retaking should be to pick up on the subtleties that you generally miss, and not as an indicator of your ability. Why score it in the first place. I think your focus is misdirected.

Focus on doing well the first time by incorporating what you did wrong before, don't try to close the gap that you feel shouldn't be there because of some fanciful score.


right. the goal of what you're doing is to self-correct, not to pretend as though it didn't happen. your score on the test will be untimed. no sense in redoing the test at this time--instead look at what you spent 4 minutes on

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MrKappus
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby MrKappus » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:04 am

^ Precisely what I was getting at...glad I'm not the only one (s.olive's post).

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sophia.olive
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby sophia.olive » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:05 am

If this method is helpful, then it is not at all because of a score you get after the second test but because you are going over questions you got wrong and seeing where you messed up.

If Speed is a concern maybe you can try reversing the processes. Take the test slowly (40-45) per section, then go over the test and note the patterns and forms of the problems. Then the next day take it with a 30 min limit to each section and se if you can pick up on the recognizable patters quickly without depending on your memory.
Maybe this will translate into being able to pick up on patterns in problems you are not familiar with.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you are taking a test that you already took without time constraints and still making mistakes on it you are in trouble. Perhaps you should trade in a little quantity for quality.

PostHawk
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby PostHawk » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:23 am

GoldenGloves wrote:I can complete LR and RC, but usually feel quite rushed. With LG, I have not been able to finish, although I can get all the answers correct when I rework each game untimed.


On LR what I do is try to get the first 13-15 at a minute a piece (they tend to be easier and my first instinct is usually right on those) which gives me about 20 minutes for the last 10... Usually I can finish with 3 or 4 minutes left which gives me time to go back over any I had marked with a "?" and see if I can really figure the question out. Also some people suggest after you get through the first 15 to skip to the end and work backwards so you don't feel rushed when you inevitably get that parallel question on #22 or #23. You might try those strategies a couple times and see if they help you at all.

PostHawk
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby PostHawk » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:27 am

sophia.olive wrote:um................ Am I missing something here.
Of course there is a huge jump.
You are actually taking the test. score________
Then you are going over the same test you just looked at so you recognize everything and you don't even time yourself. score +20 points.

Why would you think taking a test again and untimed in anyway reflects your ability. The point of retaking should be to pick up on the subtleties that you generally miss, and not as an indicator of your ability. Why score it in the first place. I think your focus is misdirected.

Focus on doing well the first time by incorporating what you did wrong before, don't try to close the gap that you feel shouldn't be there because of some fanciful score.


I think the problem is the huge discrepancy. If OP is getting 177+ on the untimed then it means that they understand the questions and get how to do them but with the added constraint of time it drastically cuts down on accuracy. I think the untimed score represents a person's potential. And there is more than just picking up the small details it also is useful for endurance training.

justadude55
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:32 pm

PostHawk wrote:
sophia.olive wrote:um................ Am I missing something here.
Of course there is a huge jump.
You are actually taking the test. score________
Then you are going over the same test you just looked at so you recognize everything and you don't even time yourself. score +20 points.

Why would you think taking a test again and untimed in anyway reflects your ability. The point of retaking should be to pick up on the subtleties that you generally miss, and not as an indicator of your ability. Why score it in the first place. I think your focus is misdirected.

Focus on doing well the first time by incorporating what you did wrong before, don't try to close the gap that you feel shouldn't be there because of some fanciful score.


I think the problem is the huge discrepancy. If OP is getting 177+ on the untimed then it means that they understand the questions and get how to do them but with the added constraint of time it drastically cuts down on accuracy. I think the untimed score represents a person's potential. And there is more than just picking up the small details it also is useful for endurance training.


the details are also how one can learn to solve assumption, s/w, flaw, disagreement and principle questions in a minute or less per.

going over what you got wrong is huge, because all new tests will do is lead to you getting the wrong answers a bit faster. however, at this point of the game (if you're going for october), your timed score is more reflective of where you might be if you don't pick up time now.

johnmckinsley
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby johnmckinsley » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:39 pm

GoldenGloves wrote:Hi everyone, I've been using what I feel is a great method that I read about on these forums. I take a PT timed then, without checking any answers beforehand, spend as much time as I need to redo a clean copy of the same exam. I then review both exams and type thorough explanations for incorrect and troublesome questions.

My progress thus far:
Superprep A: 155 (timed); no untimed effort
Superprep C: 159 (timed); 178 (untimed)
PT 40: 162 (timed); 177 (untimed)

What can I do to alleviate the difference between my timed and untimed scores? I'm scheduled to take the exam in October, and plan to do PTs 43-60 between now and that time, employing the method mentioned. \

One thing I noticed is that starting is boring in any test preparation be it LSAT or GRE or GMAT but through reiteration test taker start recognizing patterns which, in turn, helps better than reading books of any test prep or tips at forums. RC is extremely boring during starting of any test but once you become totally RC focused, it becomes piece of cake NOT because you read the stratagies but because you repeated it enough. So just keep doing 32 times, 56 times, 78 times and get the score you want!

Thanks for your help.

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GoldenGloves
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Re: 162 Timed, 177 Untimed

Postby GoldenGloves » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:55 pm

Thanks for all the input thus far. It's been great.

I think it's been helpful to see my untimed scores vs. my timed scores in order to know that I have a decent understanding of the test but need to learn how to develop speed to obtain my accuracy during untimed exams. Without this method, I wouldn't know from taking timed PTs whether I just didn't understand the test. I think my untimed scores shows that I do.

I'm shooting for 170+, and with just over a month left, I've considered rescheduling to December, but I'm not sure what I should do.




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