Help with grouping - overloaded

fosterp
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:09 am

Help with grouping - overloaded

Postby fosterp » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:50 pm

I've run into a type of game that is really giving me a hard time. I'm not sure if its the whole overloaded category or just the games that have two distinct groups that are causing me problems, but theres two games I did today that just totally stumped me. Now I can figure out any game untimed just by process of elimination, but every game I do I am trying to find the "trick" that allows me to complete questions quickly so that I can get every game done in under 9 minutes. These two games I am at a loss as to why there is nothing in the rules that can help me make any sort of inferences to at least eliminate some answers in the questions.

For example, on PT 23 game #3, the game has one extra variable, and just a bunch of rules stating who cannot go with each other. Normally with all those rules you can at least draw some inferences, but the fact that one person could be excluded entirely has stumped me. Can anyone clue me into what part of the rules should be the focus in answering questions? The only strong inference I was able to make was J1 -> R2 -> F2 -> O2. This helps on a couple questions, but on the rest I can't seem to infer any other variables to any other locations even when its a local question due to the fact that any variable could be the one that is excluded.

I also had similar problems with PT 22#4. If anyone can tell me some strategies to get these kinds of problems, or suggest reading it would be greatly appreciated. I've already gone through LGB, and the grouping section twice. They only seem to have basic obvious strategies for grouping, but nothing specific for overloaded scenarios.

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AverageTutoring
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Re: Help with grouping - overloaded

Postby AverageTutoring » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:34 pm

In the case of the PT 23 game there are not that many deductions to be made up front. Let's run through the game.

Main Diagram

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Inferences

We could make some major inferences immediately but this takes more time then it is worth. The only important thing to note up front is that if F and M are on the same team they must be on team 1 and J must be on team 2. If they were on team 2 together that would force J onto team 1 which would mandate R be on team 2 with F and M; a scenario which cannot happen. So if F and M are together they go on team 1.

Question 12: Which one of the following could be a list of researchers on the two teams?

Rule exclusion question. Nothing tricky here.

A: Out. N cannot go with R.
B: Out. F cannot go with S.
C: Correct.
D: Out. There are no Anthros on team 2!
E: Out. If J is on one then R must be on 2.

Question 13: Jones on team 1, who must be on 2 together?

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Inferences

Following the rules means that if J is on 1 then R is on 2. We also know that one of M or F needs to go on team 2 but since R is there and M cannot go with R, then F must be on team 2.

Updated Diagram

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A: Absolutely. R and F must go together.
B: Not necessarily.
C: Not necessarily.
D: Not necessarily.
E: Not necessarily.

Question 14: Neil on 1, who could be on team 1?

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Inferences

Not much we can do here. There are several scenarios and to game them all out would take a lot of time. Our best option is to brute force this question. But let’s keep in mind that R cannot go on team 1.

A: Cannot happen because F and J are both Anthros. J on 1 mandates R on 2 but M cannot go with R.
B: If J and O are on 1 that means R is on two which means M cannot be on 2. This leaves F and S together, but this cannot happen.
C: R cannot go on team 1.
D: Can happen.
E: Need one of F, M or J.

Question 15: If F and M go together, which could be true?

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Inferences

If F and M go together that means J is on the opposite team. This tells us that J cannot be on 1 because if J is on 1 then R is on 2 with M and F (no good!). So F and M must be on 1 and J must be on 2.

Note how R cannot go with M on 1 and neither can S but we still need a linguist on 1. This means either N or O must go on 1. This leaves 2 of R, S, N and O to go on team 2.

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A: J cannot go on 1
B: R cannot go on 1
C: S could be on 2
D: Both cannot go on 1
E: Both cannot go on 2

Question 16: Each of the following is a pair that could be on 2 except.

DELETED BROKEN IMAGE]

Inferences

We already found the answer to this question in our initial inferences. If F and M are together they must go on team 1.

Answer choice B is correct.

Question 17: Which could be true?

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Inferences

Once again we can use our previous work to see what could be true. In question 15 we had the possibility that F was on team 1 and N was on team 2. Thus, answer choice A is correct.

Question 18: If M is on 2, who must also be on 2?

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If M is on 2 that means J cannot be on 1 because that would place R on 2. Since the rules mandate one of M, J or F on 1 that means F must be on one.

We can take this one step further and note that S cannot go on 2 because M is there and S cannot go on 1 because F is there. Therefore S is the guy who we do not select. But if S is out that means everbody else is in. Since that means J is in, J must go on team 2.

A: F must be on 1. Not correct.
B: Jones must be on 2!
C: Not necessarily.
D: Not necessarily.
E: Not necessarily.

fosterp
Posts: 319
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Re: Help with grouping - overloaded

Postby fosterp » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:58 pm

Wow thanks for the great explanation. I guess I wasn't missing anything I am just used to every game having a certain "trick" to figuring out answers quickly. Remembering rules and drawing possibilities in my head is something I am really bad at which makes going through each possible answer very time consuming.

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AverageTutoring
Posts: 298
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Re: Help with grouping - overloaded

Postby AverageTutoring » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:11 pm

fosterp wrote:Wow thanks for the great explanation. I guess I wasn't missing anything I am just used to every game having a certain "trick" to figuring out answers quickly. Remembering rules and drawing possibilities in my head is something I am really bad at which makes going through each possible answer very time consuming.


I guess that all depends on your definition of trick :mrgreen: To me the most important facet of any game is the rule(s) that drive the game. In this case, the rule that there must be at least one anthro on each team is important because there are only 3 total. This ties into the other rules that severely restrict what linguists can match up with particular anthros. If you know what to look for the game goes by much quicker.




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