Help with Question

User avatar
seeodywhy
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Help with Question

Postby seeodywhy » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:41 pm

Four people named Maxine, Naomi, Owen, and Paul are standing in line at the bank, with no pair of people standing together.
Owen is second in line.
Paul is standing someplace ahead of Naomi.

If Maxine is third in line, which one of the following must be true?
(A) Paul isn’t first in line.
(B) Naomi isn’t fourth in line.
(C) Maxine and Naomi aren’t standing next to each other.
(D) Naomi and Owen aren’t standing next to each other.
(E) Owen and Paul aren’t standing next to each other.

The book I'm using says that there are answer profiles True False and Possible. "The phrase must be true indicates that the right answer is True and the wrong answers are all Possible or False." What I don't understand is how an answer for this question can be possible and not true. Also, can somebody give me an example of something that is possible yet not true that pertains to this or another logic game? By the way the book is Logic Games for Dummies.

User avatar
Nikrall
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:25 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby Nikrall » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:50 pm

seeodywhy wrote:Four people named Maxine, Naomi, Owen, and Paul are standing in line at the bank, with no pair of people standing together.
Owen is second in line.
Paul is standing someplace ahead of Naomi.

If Maxine is third in line, which one of the following must be true?
(A) Paul isn’t first in line.
(B) Naomi isn’t fourth in line.
(C) Maxine and Naomi aren’t standing next to each other.
(D) Naomi and Owen aren’t standing next to each other.
(E) Owen and Paul aren’t standing next to each other.

The book I'm using says that there are answer profiles True False and Possible. "The phrase must be true indicates that the right answer is True and the wrong answers are all Possible or False." What I don't understand is how an answer for this question can be possible and not true. Also, can somebody give me an example of something that is possible yet not true that pertains to this or another logic game? By the way the book is Logic Games for Dummies.


Each game is a closed world. Everything is either true, false, or you don't know (i.e. possible). The possibility of something happening doesn't mean its true.

Are you drinking water right now? I am assuming no. Could you possibly drink water? Yes. Things can be possible without being true in that moment.

User avatar
LSAT Blog
Posts: 1263
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby LSAT Blog » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55 pm

I'll answer your question, but please get a decent Logic Games book. I like the Logic Games Bible for this.

This particular question results in:

P O M N
1 2 3 4

For the question within the mini-game in LG for Dummies that you've chosen, the 4 incorrect answers are all Falses (cannot be trues). None of the answer choices are Possibles (could be true, but not necessarily true). In other words, none of the incorrect answers here are "coulds" that aren't "musts".

In a real Logic Game, at least some of the choices would be Possible (could be true).

(Real Logic Games are much more complex than this game is, and I'm using the book's terminology above with regard to False and Possible. I think the book shouldn't use the term Possible as it does because a must is also technically possible.)

Look at PrepTest 20 and the June 2007 PrepTest, as well as other real exams, and you'll see plenty of coulds that are not musts.

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/SamplePTJune.pdf

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/test.pdf

User avatar
seeodywhy
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby seeodywhy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:22 am

Please bear with. I know I am being really dense. With this type of question can there ever be a possible answer and a true answer among the same group of answer choices? For these types of questions is it typical that the full board will only have one possible arrangement? If they do sometimes have more than one possible arrangement how does one then discern between the other possible answers and the one that MUST be true? Thanks for your patience.

User avatar
Jack Smirks
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Help with Question

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:29 am

This is not the sort of game you find in an LSAT LG section... you need to purchase a book with LG's that have been actually used in old LSAT exams. I can't stress this enough, get rid of whatever book you got this question from and pick up a Powerscore Logic Games Bible or anything that publishes old actual LSAT games.

User avatar
seeodywhy
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby seeodywhy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:40 am

I first had these question when I took a preptest from one of the acual books for the first time two days ago. When I was taking the test I had no clue whether or not it is normal to have more than one possibility when you fill out the whole chart. I still don't know if it is typical to only have one possibility in that situation. I am not trying to burn any bridges and I really need the help but my questions have nothing to do with the book. Are you saying that these questions are answered in the Logic Games Bible.

User avatar
Jack Smirks
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Help with Question

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:42 am

LSAT logic games have one definite answer, only one answer per question works, does that answer your question? Also, get a different book the game you posted is bullshit.

User avatar
seeodywhy
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby seeodywhy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:56 am

I know there is only one correct answer I just want to know the answer to the questions I asked. Substitue any linear/sequencing game. For the question type where it gives a new rule like that my questions still stand. I would really appreciate a constructive answer. Thanks

User avatar
Jack Smirks
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Help with Question

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:20 am

I'm sorry I'm really trying to be constructive but the game you posted does not allow any real "could be false" scenarios. Once "m" is in the third position we can finish our diagram with P-O-M-N. What you're calling "could be possible" I call "could be true, could be false", meaning that it could be designated to the specific spot in the diagram, and the diagram would conform to all the rules, but it could go elsewhere in the diagram and it would still conform to all the rules. This is different than it "must be true" meaning it is the only possible designation that conforms to all the rules.

I think the LSAT blogs explanation of this is better than mine, but I honestly think the "games for dummies" book is confusing you because the answer choices in the game above only provides one answer that must be true, all the rest must be false. None of the answer choices here "could be true/could be false"... I hope this helps.

Audio Technica Guy
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:20 am

Think of it this way: A game is only the sum of its rules.

Any given situation must either:

1) Break one of these rules (thus it must be false)
2) Have to be true or one of the rules is broken (thus it must be true)
3) Not be effected by the rules (thus it cold be false, or it could be true)

Could be false answers include types 1 and 3. Could be true answers include 2 and 3.

To illustrate this, let's imagine the simplest order game in history.

There are three people in a race, Albert, Belinda and Charlie. There are no ties in the race. There is one rule:
Albert finishes after Belinda.

Some things that must be true (that is, there not being true would break a rule):
Albert cannot finish first
Belinda cannot finish last

Some (but not all) things that could be true:
Albert cannot finish first (since it must be true, it could be true)
Charlie finishes second (as far as we know, charlie could finish anywhere in the race)

Some things that must be false:
Albert finishes first
Belinda finishes last

Some things that could be false:
Charlie finishes second
Belinda finishes last

User avatar
LSAT Blog
Posts: 1263
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby LSAT Blog » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:22 am

seeodywhy wrote:Please bear with. I know I am being really dense. With this type of question can there ever be a possible answer and a true answer among the same group of answer choices? For these types of questions is it typical that the full board will only have one possible arrangement? If they do sometimes have more than one possible arrangement how does one then discern between the other possible answers and the one that MUST be true? Thanks for your patience.


You're not being dense, you're just learning. Don't worry about it.

Yes, there can be a possible answer and a true answer in the same group of answer choices.

The full board will often have more than one possible arrangement, even for an "if" question.

One discerns between other possible answers and the one that MUST be true by using previous valid scenarios and by drawing new ones.

Take a look at PrepTest 30 (Dec 99), Section 1, Game 4, Question 21 (p53 in Next 10 Actual Official). Three incorrect answers can be eliminated by using the correct answer from Question 17. The other incorrect answer can be eliminated by drawing another valid scenario.


naterj wrote:I'm sorry I'm really trying to be constructive but the game you posted does not allow any real "could be false" scenarios. Once "m" is in the third position we can finish our diagram with P-O-M-N. What you're calling "could be possible" I call "could be true, could be false", meaning that it could be designated to the specific spot in the diagram, and the diagram would conform to all the rules, but it could go elsewhere in the diagram and it would still conform to all the rules. This is different than it "must be true" meaning it is the only possible designation that conforms to all the rules.

I think the LSAT blogs explanation of this is better than mine, but I honestly think the "games for dummies" book is confusing you because the answer choices in the game above only provides one answer that must be true, all the rest must be false. None of the answer choices here "could be true/could be false"... I hope this helps.


Your explanation is good, too. I agree that this mini-game is confusing the OP. There's no reason for the OP to stick with this book.

User avatar
seeodywhy
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Help with Question

Postby seeodywhy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:43 pm

The way I took it was that there is something about the correct answer that has to be true. Should I assume that on those types of questions there won't be more than one option among the answer choices that doesn't break any of the rules.

Hedwig
Posts: 835
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:56 am

Re: Help with Question

Postby Hedwig » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:32 pm

Let's take your original game (which we've all acknowledged isn't great and you should be finding a better source of games). But since that's what you posted, let's go for it.

We need to add another spot and another player, because the scenario given doesn't allow for any "could be true" or "could be false" answers.

Five people named Maxine, Naomi, Owen, Paul and Tina are standing in line at the bank, with no pair of people standing together.
Owen is second in line.
Paul is standing someplace ahead of Naomi.
Paul is standing someplace ahead of Tina.

If Maxine is third in line, which one of the following must be true?
(A) Paul is first in line.
(B) Naomi isn’t fourth in line.
(C) Tina is fourth in line.
(D) Naomi and Owen are standing next to each other.
(E) Owen and Paul aren’t standing next to each other.

In this scenario, the order of people is not "set" once Maxime is put into third spot. You have two options for both fourth and fifth place. Your order would look something like this now.

1. Paul
2. Owen
3. Maxime
4. Tina OR Naomi
5. Tina OR Naomi

I changed the answer choices, so let's have a look at them.

A. Paul is first in line.
This is the correct answer, but let's put discussion of it on hold until we've gone through the rest.
B. Originally, this answer would have always been false, because Naomi always had to hold the fourth spot. Now that another rule has been added that means Naomi can be found in the fourth or fifth spot, this answer is a "could be true/could be false" answer. Naomi COULD be in the fourth spot, with Tina in the fifth. But she could also be in the fifth spot. It's not always true that she is in the fourth spot when Maxime is in the third.
C. Tina is fourth in line.
This is another answer that could be true or could be false. Tina could certainly be fourth in line according to the rules, which only relegate Paul to being in front of her. However, there's no rule about her being after Naomi, so she's free to fill the fifth spot as well. This makes it "possible" that she is in the fourth spot, but you're being asked for something that must be true.
D. Naomi and Owen are standing next to each other. This answer (once edited) is false, because no matter if Naomi is in the fourth or fifth spot (her only options at this point), she will never be next to Owen.
E. Owen and Paul aren't standing next to each other. This answer is false, because they must be standing next to each other since Owen must be in spot 2 and according to the rules, Paul must be in spot 1.

Now let's return to Paul being 1st in line. Because there are no alternatives to this action, Paul must always be in spot 1 if Maxime is in spot 3, this is a "must be true" answer.

If you're asked to find an answer that must be true:
- the four wrong answers COULD be true, but they also could be false. This basically means, if you went with one set up (1 Paul 2 Owen 3 Maxime 4 Tina 5 Naomi) the answer could be true. If you went with another viable set up (1. P 2. O 3. M. 4. N 5. T), then the answer could be false.

If you're asked to find an answer that could be true:
- the four wrong answers will always be false.

If you're asked to find an answer that could be false:
- the four wrong answers must be true. If an answer COULD be true, it could also be false.

If you're asked to find an answer that must be false:
- the four wrong answers could be true or could be false. The right answer will ALWAYS be false in all situations.

If I accidentally reversed the order of any of those statements, please correct me. But I hope something in there helped you to see what was going on there when a statement could be true or false.




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: littlewing67, MercW07, Rupert Pupkin and 6 guests