Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Audio Technica Guy
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Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:29 pm

Edit: enough people have proofed it thus far that I feel pretty confident that the game is correct at this point. So attempt with confidence.

Here is a game I came up with to give my students a little more practice with 2D order games that have a lot of deductions, if you spot any errors, please let me know, as I am the only person who has seen it thus far and thus it is probably subject to tunnel vision:

Corrections in BOLD


During a week long photography convention, six classes are given and each can be taught to a maximum of two people at a time and each class uses only black and white film or only color film. The classes each last one hour and begin at 10 AM Monday, 3 PM Monday, Noon Tuesday, 3 PM Wednesday, 3:15 PM Wednesday and Noon on Friday. The attendees are: novice photographers Thomas and Vince, intermediate photographers Wilson and Xavier and advanced photographers Yvette and Zoria. Each attendee must attend exactly two classes, one using color film and one using black and white film. Attendees must stay for the entirety of any class they attend and cannot attend multiple classes simultaneously. The classes must conform to the following conditions:

Novice photographers cannot attend classes together and are required to attend at least one Monday class, but cannot attend any Friday class.
Wilson cannot attend any class that begins before 2:45 PM that day.
Yvette's first class, which uses black and white film, must begin prior to Zoria's first class
Zoria must begin all of her classes before Xavier can begin any of his.

1) Which of the following could be an accurate listing of the days that the photographers attend classes?

(A) Vince: Monday and Tuesday; Wilson: Wednesday and Friday
(B) Vince: Monday and Wednesday; Wilson: Monday and Wednesday
(C) Yvette: Monday and Wednesday; Zoria: Tuesday and Wednesday
(D) Xavier: Tuesday and Friday; Vince: Monday and Tuesday
(E) Thomas: Monday; Yvette: Tuesday and Friday

2) If Wilson attends at least one class with Zoria, which of the following must be true?

(A) Vince attends the 3 PM Monday class
(B) Thomas attends class on Tuesday
(C) Wilson attends the second class offered on Wednesday
(D) The Tuesday class uses color film
(E) The 3 PM Wednesday class uses color film

3) If Thomas attends the the 3 PM Wednesday class and it uses color film, for how many students can it be determined exactly which classes they attend?

(A) 2
(B) 3
(C) 4
(D) 5
(E) 6

4) Each of the following must be true EXCEPT

(A) Zoria attends class on both Tuesday and Wednesday
(B) Xavier must attend class on consecutive days of the week
(C) Zoria must attend class with either Vince or Thomas
(D) The second class uses color film
(E) Yvette must attend at least one class with Xavier

5) Which of the following must be true?

(A) No pair of photographers can be in class together both times they attend class
(B) Wilson and Zoria cannot attend class together
(C) If Vince attends class with Zoria, his first class must use black and white film
(D) Yvette’s second class begins before Xavier’s second class
(E) Tuesday’s class must use color film.

6) Which of the following is a complete and accurate list of the photographers, any one of which could attend class on Wednesday?

(A) Vince, Xavier, Wilson, Zoria
(B) Wilson, Xavier, Yvette, Zoria
(C) Thomas, Vince, Wilson, Xavier, Yvette
(D) Thomas, Vince, Wilson, Xavier, Zoria
(E) Thomas, Vince, Wilson, Xavier Yvette, Zoria
Last edited by Audio Technica Guy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:43 pm

also, feel free to post your answers here. Any needed corrections to the game will be made to the original post as they're pointed out.

If you want to solve the game, spoiler alert, don't read past this post

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LSAT Blog
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby LSAT Blog » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:46 pm

Nasty game, dude. Loved it.

Didn't come across any issues or needed corrections. If you really want me to split hairs, you might've switched the order in which Vince and Thomas are mentioned in the first paragraph, just to keep them in alphabetical order. Also, you might've done something with the intermediate and advanced categories of photographers. The game certainly had plenty of deductions without it, though. :)

As for my answers, I got:

1. B
2. E
3. E
4. D
5. A
6. D
Last edited by LSAT Blog on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Jack Smirks » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 pm

I'm retarded and wrote the Wilson rule down wrong (I wrote "after 2:45"). Just a careless mistake on my part, seems good though. I'll try it again later when my frustration wears off.

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:09 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:Nasty game, dude. Loved it.

Didn't come across any issues or needed corrections. If you really want me to split hairs, you might've switched the order in which Vince and Thomas are mentioned in the first paragraph, just to keep them in alphabetical order. Also, you might've done something with the intermediate and advanced categories of photographers. The game certainly had plenty of deductions without it, though. :)

As for my answers, I got:

1. B
2. E
3. E
4. D
5. A
6. D


Thanks dude. Changes made in the setup to keep the alpha order. I thought about the advanced and intermediate thing, I originally meant for it to come up in some answer choices, but forgot. I may change it to just two types , novice (thomas and vince) and advanced (all the others). But I may not.

Also I spotted an error that I made, the 3rd rule was actually supposed to read "Yvette's first class, which uses black and white film, must begin prior to Zoria's first class" Though it appears the game works just as well the other way, just with different answers.

My answers that I got were (based on the corrected rule):

B
D
E
B
A
D

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:17 pm

One thing I've got a couple of PMs about, so I'll give a hint with, remember, a photographer cannot attend 2 classes if they have overlap. That seems to be where most of the people are running into trouble at this point, as you basically can't do the game without realizing that.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:34 am

Answers: B D E B A D

Entities:

Novice: V,T
Intermediate: W,X
Advanced: Y,Z

Days: M1, M2, T, We1, We2, F

Rules:

1 -) IF We1 -> NO We2
2 -) NO VT
3 -) V/T -> M1/M2
4 -) V/T -> NO F
5 -) W -> M2 and We1/We2 (not both, due to rule 1) (we just found first class of W, weeee)
6 -) Y1 < Z1
7 -) Z2 < X1

Basic Visualization:

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 T2/V2
We1 -> Z2 W2/T2/V2
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2/T2/V2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)


1) (B) -> V1 on M1/M2, V2 on We1 --- W1 on M2, W2 on We2

why not A -> W cannot be on F
why not C -> Y cannot be on We
why not D -> X cannot be on T
why not E -> Both Ts cannot be on M

2) (D);

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 T2/V2
We1 -> Z2 W2
We2 -> X1 (bw) T2/V2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

Why not A-> V attends two of M1/M2/T/We2 but not We1
Why not B -> While possible it might just as well be V2
Why not C -> Wilson attends We1, cannot attend We2
Why not E -> If We2 is X1 T2 -> T2 is bw, T1 is col -> M1 is V1(bw) Y1(bw), M2 is T1(col) W1(col), T is Z1(col) V2(col), We1 is Z2 (bw) W2 (bw)
If We2 is X1 V2 -> V2 is bw, V1 is col -> M1 is T1 (bw) Y1 (bw), M2 is V1 (col) W1 (col), T is Z1 (col) T2 (col), We1 is Z2 (bw) W2 (bw)

3) (E) T2 -> We1, col

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 V2
We1 -> Z2 T2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

After this initial setup, since T2 is col -> Z2 is col; since Z2 is col -> Z1 is b/w; since Z1 is b/w -> V2 is b/w, since V2 is b/w -> V1 is col, M1 is b/w so must be in M2,

M1 -> T1 (bw) Y1 (bw)
M2 -> V1 (col) W1 (col)
T -> Z1 (bw) V2 (bw)
We1 -> Z2 (col) T2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

All 6 entities are placed.

4) (B) While X attends consecutive classes, days of the week are not consecutive, X1 -> We2, X2 -> F (Wru Thursday)

Why not A -> We can see this must be true on basic visualization Z1 (T) Z2 (We1)
Why not C -> While this is true for T, not for We1 where he can be paired with W
Why not D -> Lets see what happens when we make M2 b/w,

M1 -> T1/V1 (b/w) Y1 (b/w)
M2 -> T1/V1 (b/w) W1 (b/w)
T -> Z1 (col) T2/V2 (col)
We1 -> Z2 (col) W2/T2/V2 (col)

Z loves colors too much :P

Why not E-> Friday covers this.

5) (A) This is pretty straightforward.

Why not B -> They can on We1
Why not C -> Sigh...

Option 1

M1 -> T1 / V1 , Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1 / V1 , W1
T -> Z1 V2
We1 -> Z2 W2/T2
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2/T2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

Option 1.1 (We2 = X1 W2)

M1 T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 T1/V1 W1 (col)
T Z1 V2
We1 Z2 T2
We2 X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F X2 (col) Y2 (col)

V1 can be b/w or col.

By proving a single instance where its not true, we proved this answer choice is wrong.

Why not D -> Y2 and X2 is the same class.
Why not E -> If we assume its b/w;

M1 -> V1 (bw) Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1 (col) W1 (col)
T -> Z1 (bw) T2 (bw)
We1 -> Z2 (col) V2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

is possible, so it may be wrong as well.

6) (D) Only Y cannot be on We1 or We2.

Verdict: Its not extremely hard or something, but a lot of potential pitfalls and I would experience severe hair loss if I had this game as my last game with 7 minutes remaining on timer during real test I guess.
Last edited by Nulli Secundus on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

bosox31
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby bosox31 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:28 am

3) If Thomas attends the the 3 PM Wednesday class and it uses color film, for how many students can it be determined exactly which classes they attend?

I only get C)4.

It seems to me that T and V's choice of B&W class cannot be determined. You can narrow it down so that everything else is set, but the Monday morning B&W class and the Tuesday at noon B&W could flip flop T and V. Am I missing something?

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:51 am

Read my explanation above.

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:17 am

Good job! It wasn't really supposed to be super hard (I guess I'd call it medium hard, but it's hard for me to judge it accurately), but it was supposed to have a lot of deductions that were tricky and based on both things from the setup paragraph and the clues. If you made the key deductions, the questions were super easy (though again, a couple were probably tricky).

nullisecundus wrote:Answers: B D E B A D

Entities:

Novice: V,T
Intermediate: W,X
Advanced: Y,Z

Days: M1, M2, T, We1, We2, F

Rules:

1 -) IF We1 -> NO We2
2 -) NO VT
3 -) V/T -> M1/M2
4 -) V/T -> NO F
5 -) W -> M2 and We1/We2 (not both, due to rule 1) (we just found first class of W, weeee)
6 -) Y1 < Z1
7 -) Z2 < X1

Basic Visualization:

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 T2/V2
We1 -> Z2 W2/T2/V2
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2/T2/V2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)


1) (B) -> V1 on M1/M2, V2 on We1 --- W1 on M2, W2 on We2

why not A -> W cannot be on F
why not C -> Y cannot be on We
why not D -> X cannot be on T
why not E -> Both Ts cannot be on M

2) (D);

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 T2/V2
We1 -> Z2 W2
We2 -> X1 (bw) T2/V2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

Why not A-> V attends two of M1/M2/T/We2 but not We1
Why not B -> While possible it might just as well be V2
Why not C -> Wilson attends We1, cannot attend We2
Why not E -> If We2 is X1 T2 -> T2 is bw, T1 is col -> M1 is V1(bw) Y1(bw), M2 is T1(col) W1(col), T is Z1(col) V2(col), We1 is Z2 (bw) W2 (bw)
If We2 is X1 V2 -> V2 is bw, V1 is col -> M1 is T1 (bw) Y1 (bw), M2 is V1 (col) W1 (col), T is Z1 (col) T2 (col), We1 is Z2 (bw) W2 (bw)

3) (E) T2 -> We1, col

M1 -> T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1/V1 W1
T -> Z1 V2
We1 -> Z2 T2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

After this initial setup, since T2 is col -> Z2 is col; since Z2 is col -> Z1 is b/w; since Z1 is b/w -> V2 is b/w, since V2 is b/w -> V1 is col, M1 is b/w so must be in M2,

M1 -> T1 (bw) Y1 (bw)
M2 -> V1 (col) W1 (col)
T -> Z1 (bw) V2 (bw)
We1 -> Z2 (col) T2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

All 6 entities are placed.

4) (B) While X attends consecutive classes, days of the week are not consecutive, X1 -> We2, X2 -> F (Wru Thursday)

Why not A -> We can see this must be true on basic visualization Z1 (T) Z2 (We1)
Why not C -> While this is true for T, not for We1 where he can be paired with W
Why not D -> Lets see what happens when we make M2 b/w,

M1 -> T1/V1 (b/w) Y1 (b/w)
M2 -> T1/V1 (b/w) W1 (b/w)
T -> Z1 (col) T2/V2 (col)
We1 -> Z2 (col) W2/T2/V2 (col)

Z loves colors too much :P

Why not E-> Friday covers this.

5) (A) This is pretty straightforward.

Why not B -> They can on We1
Why not C -> Sigh...

Option 1

M1 -> T1 / V1 , Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1 / V1 , W1
T -> Z1 V2
We1 -> Z2 W2/T2
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2/T2
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

Option 1.1 (We2 = X1 W2)

M1 T1/V1 Y1 (bw)
M2 T1/V1 W1 (col)
T Z1 V2
We1 Z2 T2
We2 X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F X2 (col) Y2 (col)

V1 can be b/w or col.

By proving a single instance where its not true, we proved this answer choice is wrong.

Why not D -> Y2 and X2 is the same class.
Why not E -> If we assume its b/w;

M1 -> V1 (bw) Y1 (bw)
M2 -> T1 (col) W1 (col)
T -> Z1 (bw) T2 (bw)
We1 -> Z2 (col) V2 (col)
We2 -> X1 (bw) W2 (bw)
F -> X2 (col) Y2 (col)

is possible, so it may be wrong as well.

6) (D) Only Y cannot be on We1 or We2.

Verdict: Its not extremely hard or something, but a lot of potential pitfalls and I would experience severe hair loss if I had this game as my last game with 7 minutes remaining on timer during real test I guess.

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:14 pm

hoping to get a few more people to try and comment. TYIA.

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3|ink
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby 3|ink » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:55 pm

B
D
E
B
A
D

The problem with this game was the difficulty of writing hypotheticals. Fortunately, this was a dominately global game with the exception of 2 & 3.

Audio Technica Guy
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Audio Technica Guy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:13 pm

3|ink wrote:B
D
E
B
A
D

The problem with this game was the difficulty of writing hypotheticals. Fortunately, this was a dominately global game with the exception of 2 & 3.


Not exactly sure what you mean by "the difficulty of writing hypotheticals"?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to do the game, rough estimate?

Thanks for attempting and responding.

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3|ink
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby 3|ink » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:19 pm

Audio Technica Guy wrote:
3|ink wrote:B
D
E
B
A
D

The problem with this game was the difficulty of writing hypotheticals. Fortunately, this was a dominately global game with the exception of 2 & 3.


Not exactly sure what you mean by "the difficulty of writing hypotheticals"?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to do the game, rough estimate?

Thanks for attempting and responding.


The difficulty writing hypothetical set-ups was probably my fault. I kept writing "Mon Noon" when I should have been writing "M12" or something like that. I kept running out of space trying to fit all of that in.

I took between 10-15 minutes. I was actually stuck on question 3 for a better part of it. For some reason I had it stuck in my mind that Z1 couldn't occur before Y2 even though the rule was fairly explicit. After realizing my invalid deduction, 3 and the remaining questions fell like dominos.

Edit: I write new hypothetical set-ups for every local rule question. In other words, I copy my set-up and plug in the local rule(s).

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Lawquacious
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Re: Anybody want to test their games deduction abilities?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:08 pm

Cool game. I got tripped up on #2 (had E initially) but upon review got D. I haven't actually tried a full game for over six months so it was a good challenge to do so. It took me a long time to do it, partly because I am out of practice and partly because games have never been my LSAT strong point.




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