To retake or not?

asoularisen
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To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:59 pm

I'm going to be a sophomore in the fall and got a 173 on the June 2010 LSAT (I studied for roughly the 3 weeks between when my exams ended and when my LSAT was, taking about 7 practice tests, and reading through all of the Logic Games Bible). My PT average after finishing the Logic Games Bible was a 173 (or 172.67), but I only took 3 tests after finishing LGB and one of them I completely bombed for a 167, while the other two were 175 and 176.

I'm mostly happy with my 173, because I went -2 on logic games, which is pretty damn good for me (I've gone -1 and -3 before, but I also blank on some games), but out of the 4 I missed on RC (I normally miss 2 on RC), looking back at 3 of them, it was completely stupid to have missed them, and looking back on LR (I missed 1 in each section), I shouldn't have missed one that I missed.

I feel like a 175+ is where I should have landed, but I also feel retaking a 173 is a slight gamble, however my first year did not go well at all GPA-wise (for a number of reasons, none of them good) so with 30 hours I'm at a 3.145... I plan on completely revamping my study habits and bringing that up as much as possible (with taking 17+ hours each semester and 9-12 hours each summer at community college as well to offset my first year GPA as much as possible), but I feel even with all that HYS are probably out, so most of the universities I'd apply to, I wouldn't average scores in case I miss the 173 mark this time around.

Thus, I'm at my current dilemma; part of me wants to retake in October because that Reading Comprehension section is really bothering me, while another part would prefer taking it next summer, and then finally, there's the part of me that takes this 173 as a great score, and feels that even if I missed a few easy questions, I did exceptionally well (for myself) on Logic Games (my weakest section) and also probably aced a lot of questions on RC and LR that were pretty damn tough.

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dominkay
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby dominkay » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:02 pm

asoularisen wrote:I'm going to be a sophomore in the fall and got a 173 on the June 2010 LSAT (I studied for roughly the 3 weeks between when my exams ended and when my LSAT was, taking about 7 practice tests, and reading through all of the Logic Games Bible). My PT average after finishing the Logic Games Bible was a 173 (or 172.67), but I only took 3 tests after finishing LGB and one of them I completely bombed for a 167, while the other two were 175 and 176.

I'm mostly happy with my 173, because I went -2 on logic games, which is pretty damn good for me (I've gone -1 and -3 before, but I also blank on some games), but out of the 4 I missed on RC (I normally miss 2 on RC), looking back at 3 of them, it was completely stupid to have missed them, and looking back on LR (I missed 1 in each section), I shouldn't have missed one that I missed.

I feel like a 175+ is where I should have landed, but I also feel retaking a 173 is a slight gamble, however my first year did not go well at all GPA-wise (for a number of reasons, none of them good) so with 30 hours I'm at a 3.145... I plan on completely revamping my study habits and bringing that up as much as possible (with taking 17+ hours each semester and 9-12 hours each summer at community college as well to offset my first year GPA as much as possible), but I feel even with all that HYS are probably out, so most of the universities I'd apply to, I wouldn't average scores in case I miss the 173 mark this time around.

Thus, I'm at my current dilemma; part of me wants to retake in October because that Reading Comprehension section is really bothering me, while another part would prefer taking it next summer, and then finally, there's the part of me that takes this 173 as a great score, and feels that even if I missed a few easy questions, I did exceptionally well (for myself) on Logic Games (my weakest section) and also probably aced a lot of questions on RC and LR that were pretty damn tough.


Don't retake a 173. You're a sophomore, focus on raising your GPA.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:07 pm

Well, yes, of course a 3.145 is a MUCH more pressing issue than a 173, especially this early in the game, but it's bugging me that I fucked up a potential 175-177, and I think if I did retake, I'd probably just take a few PTs to sharpen up and maybe read over LGB one more time, so it wouldn't be TOO distracting.

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gdane
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby gdane » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:22 pm

Man Id love a 173. Since youre a sophmore you should concentrate on raising your low GPA to at least a 3.5. A 3.5 with a 173 should get you in at some good top schools.

Good luck!

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dominkay
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby dominkay » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:54 pm

asoularisen wrote:Well, yes, of course a 3.145 is a MUCH more pressing issue than a 173, especially this early in the game, but it's bugging me that I fucked up a potential 175-177, and I think if I did retake, I'd probably just take a few PTs to sharpen up and maybe read over LGB one more time, so it wouldn't be TOO distracting.


You scored at your PT average. 173 is not an anomaly for you. You could have a worse day on the retake, get a few more questions wrong, and end up with a 167 again. That would look bad, and you already have an iffy GPA.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:05 pm

dominkay wrote:
asoularisen wrote:Well, yes, of course a 3.145 is a MUCH more pressing issue than a 173, especially this early in the game, but it's bugging me that I fucked up a potential 175-177, and I think if I did retake, I'd probably just take a few PTs to sharpen up and maybe read over LGB one more time, so it wouldn't be TOO distracting.


You scored at your PT average. 173 is not an anomaly for you. You could have a worse day on the retake, get a few more questions wrong, and end up with a 167 again. That would look bad, and you already have an iffy GPA.


Well, yes I did score my PT average, but I missed 4 questions that I absolutely should not have, and hopefully the GPA should get much better from here on out (like I said, shitty first year)... If I do retake, I'll make sure my PT average is at 175-176 before doing so... Maybe passively take a few practice tests till next summer...

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djjf39
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby djjf39 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:16 pm

OP, you are smart. Focus on bumping your GPA up, then retake in 18 months or so if you can consistently PT in the area you did previously. If you are basically still a Freshman, then you are sitting pretty right now. You have an LSAT that opens up almost any door, and plenty of time left to devote to GPA increasing.

If your GPA is simply a product of having too good a time in college, then easy fix. Too difficult a major, ditto. Too little effort, etc.

Ultimately, I would retake,but only if you can get that GPA near the HYSCCN range. Otherwise there is no point as a 173 with a 3.x GPA will get you into plenty of good places.

hugoboss
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby hugoboss » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:24 pm

it is hard to score your exact average on test day. 1 or two questions lower is very good considering the pressure you are under. Normally, you will miss a couple questions that you should have gotten correct. When you review the questions after the test they always seem so easy and if it were untimed, you could probably score 180. However, 173 is great I would focus on other aspects of your application. Note, I only scored a 167.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:24 pm

One last thing I wanted to say, even though I know this is mostly a dead issue, and consensus is pointing towards not retaking, and if I do retake, to do so much later, but I'm hearing logic games nowadays are easier than the ones on the practice tests I was taking (I was taking them from the 10 Official Practice LSATs book that had mostly PTs 11-20 ish), and that this June LSAT was one of the harder logic games sections in a while.

I may have scored my PT average, but the only reason my PT average was there was a bad logic games section; I never really go under -2 for both LR sections, and -4 on RC was a complete anomaly. So if logic games really are easier nowadays then in the PTs I was taking, I shouldn't have much issue making a higher LSAT score.

I guess waiting is still the right thing while I focus on my GPA, but I feel I should at least get a few PTs from the 55-59 area and see if consistent 175+ scores aren't beyond me...

WestOfTheRest
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby WestOfTheRest » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:00 pm

asoularisen wrote:One last thing I wanted to say, even though I know this is mostly a dead issue, and consensus is pointing towards not retaking, and if I do retake, to do so much later, but I'm hearing logic games nowadays are easier than the ones on the practice tests I was taking (I was taking them from the 10 Official Practice LSATs book that had mostly PTs 11-20 ish), and that this June LSAT was one of the harder logic games sections in a while.

I may have scored my PT average, but the only reason my PT average was there was a bad logic games section; I never really go under -2 for both LR sections, and -4 on RC was a complete anomaly. So if logic games really are easier nowadays then in the PTs I was taking, I shouldn't have much issue making a higher LSAT score.

I guess waiting is still the right thing while I focus on my GPA, but I feel I should at least get a few PTs from the 55-59 area and see if consistent 175+ scores aren't beyond me...


RC was not an anomaly. Although LG has, for the most part become easier, RC has become more difficult. My suggestion is retake if you feel you can do better, but don't approach it as your score this time was due to this or that anomaly. Although, with your gpa, I'm not sure you will be able to raise it enough to get into any schools that a 173 isn't more than good enough for.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:09 pm

CastleRock wrote:
asoularisen wrote:One last thing I wanted to say, even though I know this is mostly a dead issue, and consensus is pointing towards not retaking, and if I do retake, to do so much later, but I'm hearing logic games nowadays are easier than the ones on the practice tests I was taking (I was taking them from the 10 Official Practice LSATs book that had mostly PTs 11-20 ish), and that this June LSAT was one of the harder logic games sections in a while.

I may have scored my PT average, but the only reason my PT average was there was a bad logic games section; I never really go under -2 for both LR sections, and -4 on RC was a complete anomaly. So if logic games really are easier nowadays then in the PTs I was taking, I shouldn't have much issue making a higher LSAT score.

I guess waiting is still the right thing while I focus on my GPA, but I feel I should at least get a few PTs from the 55-59 area and see if consistent 175+ scores aren't beyond me...


RC was not an anomaly. Although LG has, for the most part become easier, RC has become more difficult. My suggestion is retake if you feel you can do better, but don't approach it as your score this time was due to this or that anomaly. Although, with your gpa, I'm not sure you will be able to raise it enough to get into any schools that a 173 isn't more than good enough for.


Well, it is a very early GPA, so I am hoping optimistically to get it up at least past a 3.5... With RC, I didn't so much mean the section was an anomaly as much as I meant that I messed up some questions that should have been easy for me... I guess I should wait at least a year and see how well the process of bringing my GPA up is going...

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romothesavior
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:33 pm

The difference between a 173 and a 175 is negligible, especially if your GPA sucks like it does. Plus you scored right where you were PTing, so you should be happy.

Unfortunately, you probably screwed yourself out of Harvard, Yale, and Stanford with that lackluster first year. Even if you retook and got a 180, your GPA will likely be too low.

Forget the LSAT, take blowoff classes en route to a 4.0 from here on out, and shoot for CCN.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:46 pm

romothesavior wrote:The difference between a 173 and a 175 is negligible, especially if your GPA sucks like it does. Plus you scored right where you were PTing, so you should be happy.

Unfortunately, you probably screwed yourself out of Harvard, Yale, and Stanford with that lackluster first year. Even if you retook and got a 180, your GPA will likely be too low.

Forget the LSAT, take blowoff classes en route to a 4.0 from here on out, and shoot for CCN.


So completely hypothetical, but assuming with the 6 hours of summer classes I'm starting in a few weeks, and the 34-ish hours I'll take next year, let's say I manage to pull up to a 3.5-ish, would it then be advisable to re-take it, hoping to further pull that 3.5 up even higher? Despite, this topic making it seem like I'm overly fixated on the LSAT, I do plan to put all my efforts from here on out into my GPA and get it as close to a 3.8 as possible to see if I can't still have a glimmer of a shot at HYS (but with the uphill position I'm in, I'd be happy just getting a good shot at CCN)..

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romothesavior
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:57 pm

asoularisen wrote:...let's say I manage to pull up to a 3.5-ish, would it then be advisable to re-take it, hoping to further pull that 3.5 up even higher?


:?: Re-taking the LSAT isn't going to pull your GPA up any higher. A 3.5 will all but bar you from HYS, and will really hurt your chances at CCN. You could get a 181 and you'd still get rejected at HYS.

And honestly, it doesn't sound like you would even improve your LSAT on a retake. You scored right around where you should have. Unless you feel like you can do a lot better, I wouldn't re-take... the margin for error in the 170s is small, and getting a lower score will not be good.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:04 pm

romothesavior wrote:
asoularisen wrote:...let's say I manage to pull up to a 3.5-ish, would it then be advisable to re-take it, hoping to further pull that 3.5 up even higher?


:?: Re-taking the LSAT isn't going to pull your GPA up any higher. A 3.5 will all but bar you from HYS, and will really hurt your chances at CCN. You could get a 181 and you'd still get rejected at HYS.

And honestly, it doesn't sound like you would even improve your LSAT on a retake. You scored right around where you should have. Unless you feel like you can do a lot better, I wouldn't re-take... the margin for error in the 170s is small, and getting a lower score will not be good.


What I meant by "hoping to pull that 3.5 higher" was that if after a year, I'm up to a 3.5, I could reasonably hope to pull that 3.5 up even higher over the coming year, so I could potentially get to a score high enough to where retaking for a higher LSAT would be more worth it. I realize that the wording there was a little too ambiguous.

And, the only reason my PT average wasn't 175-176 is a bombed logic games on one of my PTs, and from the sounds of it, logic games nowadays do not present that same issue. I feel strongly that if I take some more recent PTs and do some dense reading over the next year on the side, I could aim for a 175-177-ish score. I know people say on test day there's usually a drop, but with all standardized tests I've taken, I've done better on the real thing than on PTs so I feel I would be fine on a re-take.

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romothesavior
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:12 pm

asoularisen wrote:
And, the only reason my PT average wasn't 175-176 is a bombed logic games on one of my PTs, and from the sounds of it, logic games nowadays do not present that same issue.


What does this even mean?

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:17 pm

romothesavior wrote:
asoularisen wrote:
And, the only reason my PT average wasn't 175-176 is a bombed logic games on one of my PTs, and from the sounds of it, logic games nowadays do not present that same issue.


What does this even mean?


Blah, I'm not on top of expressing ideas clearly right now... Logic games nowadays aren't as difficult, so I'm not as likely to bomb a LG section on more current LSATs like I did on the PT that brought down my average. I mean I felt supremely confident that I went -0 on the experimental LG, and even though people considered the actual LG to be one of the harder ones in recent memory, I went -2 on it, so I'm pretty sure for the more recent LSATs I could PT consistently in the 175-176 range. Of course, I'd order some of PTs 50-59 and actually test this out before re-taking the LSAT based on that assumption.

archie&veronica
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby archie&veronica » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:26 am

OP, you clearly want to re-take it, so do it, but you should take all of the previous posters' advice seriously. You have no reason to assume that you won't make test day mistakes again, even on your best section. Focus on that GPA. I wouldn't even think about re-taking until your junior year. See how much you can improve your GPA by then - and good luck!

WestOfTheRest
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby WestOfTheRest » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:34 am

asoularisen wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
asoularisen wrote:...let's say I manage to pull up to a 3.5-ish, would it then be advisable to re-take it, hoping to further pull that 3.5 up even higher?


:?: Re-taking the LSAT isn't going to pull your GPA up any higher. A 3.5 will all but bar you from HYS, and will really hurt your chances at CCN. You could get a 181 and you'd still get rejected at HYS.

And honestly, it doesn't sound like you would even improve your LSAT on a retake. You scored right around where you should have. Unless you feel like you can do a lot better, I wouldn't re-take... the margin for error in the 170s is small, and getting a lower score will not be good.


What I meant by "hoping to pull that 3.5 higher" was that if after a year, I'm up to a 3.5, I could reasonably hope to pull that 3.5 up even higher over the coming year, so I could potentially get to a score high enough to where retaking for a higher LSAT would be more worth it. I realize that the wording there was a little too ambiguous.

And, the only reason my PT average wasn't 175-176 is a bombed logic games on one of my PTs, and from the sounds of it, logic games nowadays do not present that same issue. I feel strongly that if I take some more recent PTs and do some dense reading over the next year on the side, I could aim for a 175-177-ish score. I know people say on test day there's usually a drop, but with all standardized tests I've taken, I've done better on the real thing than on PTs so I feel I would be fine on a re-take.

I had a 3.5 in my freshman year, I had a high 3.8x in my sophmore year, then in my junior and senior year I had a 4.0+. My lsac gpa is in the mid 3.8s. With your freshman gpa, you will have to get a 4.0+ every year, and even then you will still be on the low side of hys. Now, given that your gpa knocks you out of contention for hys, there is really no reason for you to increase your gpa score, since it is currently high enough to get you into any school outside of hys, given that your gpa improves substantially.

asoularisen
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby asoularisen » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:36 am

Yeah, I think the best medium I can find between my urge to re-take it, and all the advice on the contrary is that I'm going to try and forget about it completely, and if over this next year I can show significant progress in GPA (keep near a perfect 4.0, get about 40 hours, and get up to a 3.5x), then I'll retake and try over the next 2 years to get that GPA as close to a 3.8 as possible.

If I can't show significant enough GPA progress, then I'll just keep working on fixing the GPA as much as possible, and not worry about retaking.

Despite how much I want to re-take, the advice on here has been solid, and clearly, my issue right now is GPA above all.

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Atlas LSAT Teacher
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Re: To retake or not?

Postby Atlas LSAT Teacher » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:03 pm

Yeah - this sounds like the smart thing to do. I'll tell you from personal experience that you need to completely re-prepare for the LSAT and not expect score improvement just based on a previous score and some general maturation. But, you're in a great spot - congrats! The nice thing is that if you don't take blow-off courses, which to me sounds like a waste of two years of college, but I am a geeky educator - a couple of years of college will also be good prep for the LSAT (LSAT prep can't easily stand in for years of rigorous academics). Good luck!

And, what decision process is complete without a flowchart?
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