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Thank you for this. On top of everything else, my parents think lawyers are the devil. (Literally, my mom is very wack-o and thinks no Christians are lawyers - - - - um hello? notre dame!?)

Oh, damn. I won't hate on your parents. It's not my place. Keep your eyes forward and you'll be fine.

By the way, if you just get to a 158 then you have a whole slew of schools open up for you. You better take the LSAT again or I'll kick your ass. 160 and you're considered at just about everywhere <T20.

IUB is definitely not a target for you, and I think these are pretty optimistic replies. You're going to have to do MUCH better to get what you want (money or ND). However, you have all summer to keep studying, so I'm sure you can raise that score.

angiej wrote:

Azmatt wrote:

luxxe wrote:I would definitely retake. With your GPA, an improved LSAT would make a huge difference & give you a chance to get into some tier 1 schools or get you money at a tier 2. If you could get your score at 161/162+, L&C & Notre Dame could be target schools for you & would dramatically improve your job prospects after graduation. Trying to minimize debt isn't worth it if you can't find employment.

Agreed. You just take the debt if you get into your reach schools. Necessary evil. I imagine it's something you'd regret otherwise. Plus, go Irish! Play like a champion, Angie.

Thanks! Notre Dame would be an absolute DREAM. I grew up nearby and it was always this dream of mine to go but literally my PARENTS would say things like "that's the rich, smart kid school" or "well at least we know we will never have to pay for our daughter to go there." Etc. Its been a fantasy, but honestly, I never thought it would be possible for me to even break into the 150's from my initial 143. I have never regarded myself as "that" smart. Just someone who worked hard.

Angie..its possible. I started at a 149 went up to pt'ing at a 166-169 and if it wasnt for circumstances that freaked me out I could have gotten in the higher end of that range but ended up with a 165. I am now retaking. Trust me it is POSSIBLE! anything is realy with enough effort.

amyLAchemist wrote:I am not one to jump on the retake bandwagon too quickly, but I am going with retake here. However, if you don't feel like you have time to prepare a lot before October though, you'd be better off waiting till another test time, even if it means putting off law school for a year.

I know starting in the low 140s seems really low to a lot of people here, but myself and several of my friends started there. It was a long road of studying for me, and slow improvement. I didn't take a course, but read the LR and LG bibles. After going through those once, I could practice consistently in the high 150s. I just wasn't happy with this, so I went through the Bibles again, and kept doing PTs and was then consistently practicing between 167-172 and ended up with a 168.

I agree with other posters, that if you can break 160, there are a lot more opportunities available. However, if you can get up into the high 160s...with your GPA, you are looking at the T14.

It sounds like re-reading or at least re-skimming the bibles is helpful. I can think of a ton of things I would do differently if I studied all over again. For one, I jumped into taking PT's before I was ready and this frusturated me. For two, I read the LR bible three weeks befor the lsat even though I had begun prepping in January. So I didn't give myself a lot of time to actually digest and practice the methods and skills I learned in the LR bible.

Can anyone tell me what the reprucussions will be (if any) if I chose to take the option of eliminating one class from my summer schedule and replacing that time with lsat studying, meaning I'd have to make up that class the summer before law school? Law schools don't care if I don't graduate in the spring, right? Just as long as I do it before I begin law school?

Cosmo Kramer wrote:IUB is definitely not a target for you, and I think these are pretty optimistic replies. You're going to have to do MUCH better to get what you want (money or ND). However, you have all summer to keep studying, so I'm sure you can raise that score.

Horseshit. She's 3 points away from a 158 which gives you a "consider" at IU-B. LSP is pretty conservative too. 3 points. Find your weakness, attack it, in at ND. It's a very learnable test.


I'm workign 60 hours a week and taking 5 classes this summer w/ an override. STill find "some" time to study so, I don't know your schedule, but you shouldn't have to sacrifice to do well in OCT.

And seriously . . . what happens if I test lower in October!? Does this at all diminish my June score? Is it at all possible the reason I went from 150-153 to 155 on test day is the curve and the eliminated question from the June test. The Oct curve may be less, etc.

amyLAchemist wrote:It sounds like you didn't prepare properly the first time (not being mean...don't take it that way). If you prepare properly this time, take your time going through stuff, not doing PTs till you are ready, etc,......that really shouldn't happen.

Yes, I will be the first to admit I did not prep properly and def did not give myself enough time to learn the material before diving into timed PT's and getting frusturated.

Azmatt wrote:

Cosmo Kramer wrote:IUB is definitely not a target for you, and I think these are pretty optimistic replies. You're going to have to do MUCH better to get what you want (money or ND). However, you have all summer to keep studying, so I'm sure you can raise that score.

Horseshit. She's 3 points away from a 158 which gives you a "consider" at IU-B. LSP is pretty conservative too. 3 points. Find your weakness, attack it, in at ND. It's a very learnable test.


I'm workign 60 hours a week and taking 5 classes this summer w/ an override. STill find "some" time to study so, I don't know your schedule, but you shouldn't have to sacrifice to do well in OCT.

Wrong. Schools don't make decisions based on how close you are to acceptable numbers. Check LSN, it's highly unlikely a 155/3.8 non-urm gets in. I have anecdotal evidence as well, but I think LSN is the better source.

To clarify, I'm saying IUB is a reach with her CURRENT numbers. I definitely agree that she could study more and get that score up a couple points and make IUB very likely.

angiej wrote:

amyLAchemist wrote:It sounds like you didn't prepare properly the first time (not being mean...don't take it that way). If you prepare properly this time, take your time going through stuff, not doing PTs till you are ready, etc,......that really shouldn't happen.

Yes, I will be the first to admit I did not prep properly and def did not give myself enough time to learn the material before diving into timed PT's and getting frusturated.

ND is rough sub-163, but with just a 160 you've got a good shot IU-B.

We're really just telling you things you already know... Take it in OCT/DEC. I'll tell you what I'm doing to study if you want to PM me. I have a tight schedule, but I do what I can.

You're going to do fine. You made a tremendous jump without the confidence or the preparation to do so. There's no reason why you can't aim high. Even higher than ND. Just aim for 163+/170 even and a lot of doors will open for you.

Still though, we can't tell you this. You have to know it.

Thank you all for your help - I'm still trying to decide.

Also, if I retake in October what happens to my application cycle/process. I want to apply in September/October - do I still do this even with my June score?

angiej wrote:Thank you all for your help - I'm still trying to decide.

Also, if I retake in October what happens to my application cycle/process. I want to apply in September/October - do I still do this even with my June score?

I'm a forum-addict today it seems.

Yes. the files will update with a new score. Unless, you do a ED I believe.

.

ach24 wrote:Angie:

I just wanted to say you and I have similar situations (both first gen, both work as paralegals, both independent financial status, etc.). I didn't do much better than you, and I'm retaking in October. I didn't take the first go around as seriously as I should have (so many factors here, late decision to take, emergency tonsillectomy, etc.).

I honestly think you can do a better job if you commit the time to studying. But, I would not retake unless you have the time to devote to studying. I signed up to retake in October to force myself to start getting ready now, and I hope it works. If you want, we can be study buddies!

Lets chat - I PM'ed you back, thanks for reaching out to me.

I woke up feeling this morning like I would be crazy not to retake. I love you all!!! Seriously, thank you so much everyone for getting me to see the light!!!

One question: do any of these schools on my list average lsat's anymore?
Reach:
Notre Dame
Lewis and Clark

Target:
IU B
IU Indy
MSU
Depaul
Loyola
Chicago Kent

Safety:
Valpo
John Marhsall

Good compilation article on retaking the LSAT, including a chart of how schools deal with multiple LSATs: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

Bildungsroman wrote:Good compilation article on retaking the LSAT, including a chart of how schools deal with multiple LSATs: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

Wow! Thanks!

Let’s assume that, since you’re continuing to read the article, you are one of those people for whom it is a good idea to retake the LSAT. The benefits of doing so are massive, larger than most people realize without having done research. A quick glance at certain schools on Law School Numbers (LSN: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/) will show that in many cases a single point on the LSAT can lead to tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money. A three-point increase on the LSAT can sometimes even result in a full scholarship offer where otherwise there would be no scholarship at all. Consider this scenario for a moment: If someone offered you $100,000 to increase your LSAT score 3+ points, would you do it? It seems to me that any sane person would accept this offer. So, given this, it should now be clear why it’s in your best interest to retake the LSAT if you underperform, despite the large amount of work and hassle that is involved in retaking.

This might help you:

Sept 09 score: 152
June 10 score: 161 (9 point improvement) and it would have been more had I not let the mulch/interns get to me. Thus, I am probably looking at a third retake and hoping to hit at least 165+ this time around, as my dream schools are Notre Dame and Berkeley. I bought the bibles and all the PT's (doing it the TLS way this time. I have never done more than 10 PT's before the actual test, so hopefully by doing 20 or more I will see my score improve at least another 3-5 points on test day).

How hard did you study? Even if you thought you studied really hard, I would still retake. Since you've been through the whole ordeal once already, you might be more calm come test day when you actually take the test. You know what to expect.

If you're really not getting the kinds of scores on the PTs that you want you could always decide not to take it when the deadline comes around to decide not to, or be absent that day, or cancel (particularly if you think you did worse). But if you never try, then you won't know. You'll be left with what if I had taken the LSAT again? Believe me, you don't want to live with that kind of regret.

With that GPA, re-take! Just make sure you make the time to do the ground work to fix any gaps before you re-write. Was there a particular part you had trouble with? or was it a timing issue? There's tons of great advice on here to fix any weaknesses, just make sure whenever you go over and review your PT's you truly take the time to understand what went wrong. Early on, I'd cheat myself by saying I understood where I went wrong on LR/RC, but once I forced myself to explain out loud exactly why one answer was right and the other 3 were wrong things really began to click for me. If you want it bad enough and are willing to put in the effort, I think you can definitely do it.

I am personally of the opinion that LSAT prep has rapidly diminishing returns; obviously the difference between your cold diagnostic and your 3rd PT will be great, but I just think it tends to drop off steeply after that. Note that Testmasters/Powerscore don't advertise any actual statistics of improvement on their sites (which would obviously be the most effective way to advertise, after perhaps a guarantee), and Cornell LS claims that improvements of >3 points are exceedingly rare.

That having been said, no one doubts the returns that a few extra points can bring, and a subsequent lower score wouldn't tangibly hurt you (probably'd be real disappointing though).

angiej wrote:How do the stafford (government administered) loans work . . . I mean if I get a scholarship, do I get less of the government loan since my EFC or unmet need will be less?

Unfortunately (for you) all law students are considered independent (parental income is not a factor), and the only governmental need-based aid is in the form of subsidized interest loans. Fortunately, almost everyone qualifies for the full amount of "need-based" aid, including people who came out of decent jobs (e.g., military).

You will be eligible for $20,500 in DL (the old Stafford) loans each year, $12,000 of which will be unsubsidized (the 6.8% interest rate will accrue while you are in LS) and $8,500 of which will be subsidized (interest doesn't begin to accrue until 6 months after graduation; this is a GREAT deal, and actually technically better than having no debt at all). You'll also be separately eligible for the much-less-attractive Grad PLUS loans, which are non need-based and accrue 7.9% interest (and also a heftier origination fee) starting when you take them out, and have no 6 mo. grace period for repayment.

Additionally, need-based aid from the law school itself is generally taken from the same pot of $$$ from which they give merit-based aid, and consequently the difference is somewhat cosmetic, if not entirely nonexistent. I've heard Harvard is an exception, but basically don't rely on the school for need-based aid.

Edit: All the schools on your list are worth an app even with the current numbers. Come say hi if you visit ND, and best of luck!!

queenlizzie13 wrote:This might help you:

Sept 09 score: 152
June 10 score: 161 (9 point improvement)
How hard did you study? Even if you thought you studied really hard, I would still retake. Since you've been through the whole ordeal once already, you might be more calm come test day when you actually take the test. You know what to expect.

Wow, congrats on that awesome improvement. Was your Sept 09 sort of like a diagnostic for you or did you prep considerably before you took the test?

I read the powerscore LG bible and the LR bible, and took 10 timed practice tests and 4 untimed tests. I studied over 4 months, but hour-wise, it wasn't that much because while 4 months may seem like a long time, with my work and school schedule it was maybe about 5-9 hours a week. RC was my worst section on the june test, I was -12. I would love some recommendations on improving RC.

My 155 wasn't from nervousness or anything like that, I was very nervous and very calm, in fact my 155 was 2 points higher than my best practice test. So its not like I was PTing much higher and bombed the june test.

angiej wrote:


I read the powerscore LG bible and the LR bible, and took 10 timed practice tests and 4 untimed tests. I studied over 4 months, but hour-wise, it wasn't that much because while 4 months may seem like a long time, with my work and school schedule it was maybe about 5-9 hours a week. RC was my worst section on the june test, I was -12. I would love some recommendations on improving RC.

My 155 wasn't from nervousness or anything like that, I was very nervous and very calm, in fact my 155 was 2 points higher than my best practice test. So its not like I was PTing much higher and bombed the june test.

I voted no retake because of this sentence... I will also admit to being rather risk averse, but I would fear scoring lower the second time around, and either being forced to retake a third time or add an addendum to my apps.

However, I know it is certainly a tough choice and I wish you the best of luck!

Wow, congrats on that awesome improvement. Was your Sept 09 sort of like a diagnostic for you or did you prep considerably before you took the test?

I read the powerscore LG bible and the LR bible, and took 10 timed practice tests and 4 untimed tests. I studied over 4 months, but hour-wise, it wasn't that much because while 4 months may seem like a long time, with my work and school schedule it was maybe about 5-9 hours a week. RC was my worst section on the june test, I was -12. I would love some recommendations on improving RC.

My 155 wasn't from nervousness or anything like that, I was very nervous and very calm, in fact my 155 was 2 points higher than my best practice test. So its not like I was PTing much higher and bombed the june test.

Uh, not exactly? I mean I used Testmasters the first time around and tried to do as much of the homework as possible. I didn't really take additional PT's though, other than the ones that were scheduled. I severely underestimated how much time it takes to study for the LSAT, and regret it. That being said 152 was my first diagnostic score. I was really mad when I saw that score after the Sept 09 test. 8 pts below my highest PT of 160.

Something about Sept 09 is just bad for me...I took it again this time around and scored my lowest PT before the test at 157. I was hitting 164-166 (with 2 170+ before the test). Thus, I kind of want to take it again. I used a blueprint course the second time around. Somehow using that made it easier for me to get. I took about 10-12 PT's before June 10.

How many did you miss on LR and LG? I think the easiest section to improve on is LG. That being said, you can definitely improve on RC. I went from missing 13 on Sept 09 to missing 7 (and that was a lot, but I kind of knew I didn't do as well as normal on that section).

I started to read the Economist, and did much more RC homework...I tended to neglect that the first time around...took some dense philosophy courses and a logic course between Sept 09 and June... think that also helped a lot.

I think if you can somehow hit 20 PT's before October, you may see your score improve a lot, provided you review all the tests, etc. and see which question types you are consistently getting wrong.

queenlizzie13 wrote:

Wow, congrats on that awesome improvement. Was your Sept 09 sort of like a diagnostic for you or did you prep considerably before you took the test?

I read the powerscore LG bible and the LR bible, and took 10 timed practice tests and 4 untimed tests. I studied over 4 months, but hour-wise, it wasn't that much because while 4 months may seem like a long time, with my work and school schedule it was maybe about 5-9 hours a week. RC was my worst section on the june test, I was -12. I would love some recommendations on improving RC.

My 155 wasn't from nervousness or anything like that, I was very nervous and very calm, in fact my 155 was 2 points higher than my best practice test. So its not like I was PTing much higher and bombed the june test.

How many did you miss on LR and LG?

-7 and -8 respectively. I finished all sections except RC, but with LR and LG I was really rushing to finish.

angiej wrote:

queenlizzie13 wrote:

Wow, congrats on that awesome improvement. Was your Sept 09 sort of like a diagnostic for you or did you prep considerably before you took the test?

I read the powerscore LG bible and the LR bible, and took 10 timed practice tests and 4 untimed tests. I studied over 4 months, but hour-wise, it wasn't that much because while 4 months may seem like a long time, with my work and school schedule it was maybe about 5-9 hours a week. RC was my worst section on the june test, I was -12. I would love some recommendations on improving RC.

My 155 wasn't from nervousness or anything like that, I was very nervous and very calm, in fact my 155 was 2 points higher than my best practice test. So its not like I was PTing much higher and bombed the june test.

How many did you miss on LR and LG?

-7 and -8 respectively. I finished all sections except RC, but with LR and LG I was really rushing to finish.

You can definitely improve on LG. -8 is not bad for LR (less than I missed). -7 for games is quite a lot. I think you want to be missing 3 or less going into the test. I would recommend working on RC and LG for the first few weeks of study, then taking more PT's and see if that helps at all.

If you're still not scoring what you want, than you could always decide not to take the test (I think there's a deadline about 3 weeks out that allows you to do this). But I think, at least sign up and give it a try...particularly before all the test centers fill up...as what happened in Sept09.