Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

lawschooloneday
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Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby lawschooloneday » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:30 pm

All right, so here is my story.

I graduated from an Ivy League in 2008, Phi Beta Kappa and summa cum laude. I took the June 2010 LSAT and canceled after LG ruined my focus for the entire exam. Unfortunately I had another cancellation on record and a score that would ruin my chances to a t14 (158) with scholarship. I work at Mckinsey right now as an analyst and they will pay for 80% of my MBA.

I always wanted to go to law school but I believe that with my LSAT record, I have been shut out from many competitive law schools and scholarships. My parents are not wealthy and they cannot help me one bit to finance law school should I decide to take on the debt and attend a lower tier school (in fact, the only reason that I could go to college was because I had a full merit scholarship). I also have a pretty good soft factors (Volunteer Big Brother of the Year, award for best honors thesis etc)

Now I am considering taking the GMATs and applying to competitive business schools. Anyone take the GMATs after the LSAT? Do you find the exam more difficult or easier? I know they are completely different exams, so any constructive feedback (i.e. not telling me to kill myself) would be greatly appreciated.

Also in general, did anyone else settle for business school after the LSAT did not work out? I want to peruse higher education soon to enhance my career prospects and I feel that taking the GMATs and applying for business school would provide me with a clean slate and be a good decision. Also, top business schools appears less competitive (CLS in infamous for being a drinking/networking program) than law schools and people that are not in the top 20% still get pretty sweet jobs.

Any thoughts. I greatly appreciate it!
Last edited by lawschooloneday on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dukelawguy144
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby dukelawguy144 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:37 pm

It seems like going to business school is an easy way out. If law is what you really want to do, then just wait. Also, business school grads do not seem to have that great career prospects either.

slider
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby slider » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:46 pm

I sat for the GMAT after a couple attempts on LSAT and found it VERY easy. Math comes much easier to me. The logic skills you picked up while studying for the LSAT will definitely help you on the GMAT.

Seems like you have a great business background. You can always go to law school later if you decide this is what is best for you.

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irie
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby irie » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:46 pm

lawschooloneday wrote:All right, so here is my story.

I graduated from an Ivy League in 2008, Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude. I took the June 2010 LSAT and canceled after LG ruined my focus for the entire exam. Unfortunately I had another cancellation on record and a score that would ruin my chances to a t14 (158) with scholarship. I work at Mckinsey right now as an analyst and they will pay for 80% of my MBA.

I always wanted to go to law school but I believe that with my LSAT record, I have been shut out from many competitive law schools and scholarships. My parents are not wealthy and they cannot help me one bit to finance law school should I decide to take on the debt and attend a lower tier school (in fact, the only reason that I could go to college was because I had a full merit scholarship). I also have a pretty good soft factors (Volunteer Big Brother of the Year, award for best honors thesis etc)

Now I am considering taking the GMATs and applying to competitive business schools. Anyone take the GMATs after the LSAT? Do you find the exam more difficult or easier? I know they are completely different exams, so any constructive feedback (i.e. not telling me to kill myself) would be greatly appreciated.

Also in general, did anyone else settle for business school after the LSAT did not work out? I want to peruse higher education soon to enhance my career prospects and I feel that taking the GMATs and applying for business school would be a clean slate and good decision. Also, top business schools appears less competitive (CLS in infamous for being a drinking/networking program) than law schools and people that are not in the top 20% still get pretty sweet jobs.

Any thoughts. I greatly appreciate it!


I took the GMATs in between the CFAs and the LSAT, so not sure if this is applicable to your situation. However, I will say that of the 3 exams, the GMATs were by far the least stressful and easiest to study for. It helps that the exam dates are so often and flexible, but don't let that throw you off. Decide on a date for the test and stick to it, act as though you can not change it, and it will force you to study harder and stick to your schedule.

The format, obviously, is very different from the LSAT. Time is not such an issue as it is on the LSAT, and the questions require more on-the-spot calculating and thinking, as opposed to the LSAT where you've pretty much seen every type of question and just need to approach it using whatever system worked best for you on practice tests. It is certainly not a consistent exam like the LSAT, so you wont be scoring within a narrow range by test day, but if you are in the study mode from your LSAT prep then you will do just fine.

With your background I think you have a great shot at a top bschool, provided you can get good recommendations and a decent gmat score. And if McKinsey is willing to pay then I really don't see any reason not to go, if you are determined to get an professional degree. Unfortunately with 2 cancels and a 158, I'd say your chances at a top law school look a bit bleak, but its not completely out of question. Maybe you can look into Northwestern's JD/MBA program? I understand that for this you dont even need an LSAT score (see the Admissions FAQs), perhaps this applies to the JD-MBA program at some other top schools as well, but I don't know any off the top of my head. Worth a look, certainly.

http://www.jdmba.northwestern.edu/index.htm
Last edited by irie on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dominkay
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby dominkay » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:46 pm

I think you should totally go to B-school on your employer's dime.

Flanker1067
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby Flanker1067 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:48 pm

I am pretty sure business school is the right financial decision. Bschools eat up that pedigree'd background (Ivy UG, Mckinsey) and I don't know too much about hiring but it seems that you are on the road to success in consulting.

As for your personal preference for being a lawyer, all I can say is that it's as likely to dissapoint you as it is to be what you dreamed. Both careers paths involve lots of tedious work and a big time commitment. I wouldn't criticize you beyond what I have said here for making the law school choice though.

lawschooloneday
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby lawschooloneday » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:58 pm

irie wrote:
lawschooloneday wrote:All right, so here is my story.


I took the GMATs in between the CFAs and the LSAT, so not sure if this is applicable to your situation. However, I will say that of the 3 exams, the GMATs were by far the least stressful and easiest to study for. It helps that the exam dates are so often and flexible, but don't let that throw you off. Decide on a date for the test and stick to it, act as though you can not change it, and it will force you to study harder and stick to your schedule.

The format, obviously, is very different from the LSAT. Time is not such an issue as it is on the LSAT, and the questions require more on-the-spot calculating and thinking, as opposed to the LSAT where you've pretty much seen every type of question and just need to approach it using whatever system worked best for you on practice tests. It is certainly not a consistent exam like the LSAT, so you wont be scoring within a narrow range by test day, but if you are in the study mode from your LSAT prep then you will do just fine.

With your background I think you have a great shot at a top bschool, provided you can get good recommendations and a decent gmat score. And if McKinsey is willing to pay then I really don't see any reason not to go, if you are determined to get an professional degree. Unfortunately with 2 cancels and a 158, I'd say your chances at a top law school look a bit bleak, but its not completely out of question. Maybe you can look into Northwestern's JD/MBA program? I understand that for this you dont even need an LSAT score (see the Admissions FAQs), perhaps this applies to the JD-MBA program at some other top schools as well, but I don't know any off the top of my head. Worth a look, certainly.


http://www.jdmba.northwestern.edu/index.htm


Thanks, I am also considering now taking the CFA as well (My dream was financial law) . I feel like I can knock out that exam bc I have a pretty strong finance background. I will look into Northwestern, but I feel like my LSAT record pretty much screwed me over to any top 14 school (its my fault tho). Plus I have no good excuse (anxiety attacks do not qualify I assume) I just always had the dream of going to law school so its kinda hard to see that dream go (especially since I studied for the LSAT for over a year and a half). Thanks for your advice.

Did you take a prep course for the GMATs? Do you have any recommendations on how best to prepare?

dukelawguy144
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby dukelawguy144 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:11 pm

I have to agree with you that you lost your chances for a top 10 law school. And based on your background, you do not seem capable of scoring in a range that would make you competitive to any law school worth paying for (ie. anything below GWU or arguably Gtown). With that said, you have a pretty solid background for business (Mckinsey is pretty bank), so go down that route. Unlike many people who scored in the 150's and think they can be a successful enough to justify the debt, you may actually have a successful future ahead of you.

If you got to law school, you will most likely be depressed for the rest of you life in debt and regretting your decision. Its not worth it bro. Your dream may be shattered, but its not the end of the world. And also, do you know how many of the mediocre below 165 lsat law school hopefuls on TLS would love to have your background and options. You have nothing to be upset about. Also, spending a year and half studying for the LSAT just shows that you are not capable of getting a mediocre LSAT score. So in conclusion, explore other options (which you are doing) and get over it!

To answer your question, I heard ManhattanGmat is pretty decent (did not take the test tho, a bunch of my buddies did tho and say its the best)

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Dtackpat75
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby Dtackpat75 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:12 pm

I took the LSAT and did decently well and am now re taking the GMAT (took before LSAT prep and test) after getting a 680 the first time around. I do think the LSAT RC and LR is much harder than what you will find on the GMAT. However, Sentence Correction is a pain in the butt and then there is the whole Math/Quantitative section. Obviously I don't know how I will end up doing but currently my practice tests are consistently above a 680 and I have really just started studying (again).

However, GMAT score is not weighted as heavily as the LSAT in the admissions process. Sounds like regardless of your GMAT score your biggest strength is McKinsey.

lawschooloneday
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby lawschooloneday » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:19 pm

Dtackpat75 wrote:I took the LSAT and did decently well and am now re taking the GMAT (took before LSAT prep and test) after getting a 680 the first time around. I do think the LSAT RC and LR is much harder than what you will find on the GMAT. However, Sentence Correction is a pain in the butt and then there is the whole Math/Quantitative section. Obviously I don't know how I will end up doing but currently my practice tests are consistently above a 680 and I have really just started studying (again).

However, GMAT score is not weighted as heavily as the LSAT in the admissions process. Sounds like regardless of your GMAT score your biggest strength is McKinsey.


Did you take a course to prepare for the GMATs? If you do not mind me asking, how long did you study (or have been studying) for?

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby quickquestionthanks » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:19 pm

what Ivy offers full merit scholarships?

lawschooloneday
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby lawschooloneday » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:22 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:what Ivy offers full merit scholarships?


Sorry I did not type it correctly, it was both merit and need based. My parents never graduated college and my family was pretty poor when I was growing up (not ashamed about it though).

dukelawguy144
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby dukelawguy144 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:28 pm

lawschooloneday wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:what Ivy offers full merit scholarships?


Sorry I did not type it correctly, it was both merit and need based. My parents never graduated college and my family was pretty poor when I was growing up (not ashamed about it though).


.
Last edited by dukelawguy144 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

bubiglaw
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby bubiglaw » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:19 pm

In your case GMAT and business school seem to the best option. Who knows, maybe you can take the LSAT next year and combine it with a JD/MBA. I took my GMATs earlier this year so if you want any advice, message me :)

Good luck!

tomwatts
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby tomwatts » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:34 pm

lawschooloneday wrote:Did you take a prep course for the GMATs? Do you have any recommendations on how best to prepare?

In addition to teaching LSAT for Princeton Review, I also teach GMAT, so I can say a little about the prep courses available. The major national companies are us and Kaplan, and there are several GMAT-only or GMAT-focused outfits, too (notably Manhattan GMAT, who you might know as Atlas LSAT). I like our program and always enjoy GMAT as a change of pace, though, as in LSAT, if anyone tells you there's only one right prep course to take, it's not true.

I'm particularly a fan of our online course, which you might consider in GMAT even if you're near a prep course location just because the test is on a computer, unlike the LSAT. If you want to know anything about our courses, just ask.

General stuff about preparing: it's LSAT-Lite. Others have mentioned that time is much less of a factor, and this is true, and several of the question types are similar (LR, RC). Data Sufficiency is a little strange, but other than that, you'll find it very familiar. Make sure you do some practice on a computer, though, because that's a little different.

lawschooloneday
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby lawschooloneday » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:46 pm

tomwatts wrote:
lawschooloneday wrote:Did you take a prep course for the GMATs? Do you have any recommendations on how best to prepare?

In addition to teaching LSAT for Princeton Review, I also teach GMAT, so I can say a little about the prep courses available. The major national companies are us and Kaplan, and there are several GMAT-only or GMAT-focused outfits, too (notably Manhattan GMAT, who you might know as Atlas LSAT). I like our program and always enjoy GMAT as a change of pace, though, as in LSAT, if anyone tells you there's only one right prep course to take, it's not true.

I'm particularly a fan of our online course, which you might consider in GMAT even if you're near a prep course location just because the test is on a computer, unlike the LSAT. If you want to know anything about our courses, just ask.

General stuff about preparing: it's LSAT-Lite. Others have mentioned that time is much less of a factor, and this is true, and several of the question types are similar (LR, RC). Data Sufficiency is a little strange, but other than that, you'll find it very familiar. Make sure you do some practice on a computer, though, because that's a little different.



Thanks! This is great advice! Just another question, as an LSAT and GMAT instructor, which test do you think is more learnable or easier to improve upon? (if that makes sense lol)

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NoleinNY
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby NoleinNY » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:06 am

dukelawguy144 wrote:
lawschooloneday wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:what Ivy offers full merit scholarships?


Sorry I did not type it correctly, it was both merit and need based. My parents never graduated college and my family was pretty poor when I was growing up (not ashamed about it though).


Dont think anyone cares about that. On a side note, you must feel out of place at Mckinsey with all those rich Ivy kids.


Wow.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby NoleinNY » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:23 am

As for the OP, that MBA sounds like an awesome opportunity. And since it's on the company dollar (more or less) it sounds like one good option would be to nail the GMAT, go on your company's dime, work for a few years (probably with your same company since they are investing in the degree) and see where it takes you. LSAT records stay with you for 5 years and then it's a fresh start IIRC (could be wrong about what the schools can see). If after doing B-school, banking loads of Benjamins, and possibly moving up the ladder you still hold onto legal aspirations, then study for the LSAT again. Nail it, apply to NW or other schools and be happy. There is no easy way to get to law school for you, unfortunately.

tl; dr version: you have fantastic opportunities and can probably make it to LS in time.

tomwatts
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby tomwatts » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:51 am

lawschooloneday wrote:Thanks! This is great advice! Just another question, as an LSAT and GMAT instructor, which test do you think is more learnable or easier to improve upon? (if that makes sense lol)

This one is a little hard to say. There are more (uh, FAR more) released LSATs than released GMATs (releasing questions in a computer-adaptive test is a little weird anyway), and the LSAT is more consistent from test to test, I think. However, the GMAT is overall just an easier test, and it has actual content (math) instead of pure logic/test-taking. So people tend to need less time to study for the GMAT, because if you review the math and grammar and get good/already are good at the "Critical Reasoning" (LR from LSAT) and RC, you're set.

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bk1
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:10 am

You can always go to law school later if you really want to later on down the line (i.e. in 2 years or so when you can take another test).

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hellojd
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby hellojd » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:09 pm

tomwatts wrote:
lawschooloneday wrote:Thanks! This is great advice! Just another question, as an LSAT and GMAT instructor, which test do you think is more learnable or easier to improve upon? (if that makes sense lol)

This one is a little hard to say. There are more (uh, FAR more) released LSATs than released GMATs (releasing questions in a computer-adaptive test is a little weird anyway), and the LSAT is more consistent from test to test, I think. However, the GMAT is overall just an easier test, and it has actual content (math) instead of pure logic/test-taking. So people tend to need less time to study for the GMAT, because if you review the math and grammar and get good/already are good at the "Critical Reasoning" (LR from LSAT) and RC, you're set.


Hmm, well actually imho, the LSAT was easier - math has typically been my weaker sections on tests, so the LSAT was a blessing considering there is no math.

Also, as tom mentioned, the GMAT is harder to actually study for - it has a lot of quirks (no official full-length tests released, need to do them on the computer, the useless but SCORED essays are at the beginning of the test so they might tire you out, the test is adaptive, etc.) - in my opinion, the LSAT was less of a headache in terms of logistics.

That being said, after studying for the LSAT, 2/3 verbal sections should be a breeze for you (LR and RC). If you actually are good at math, then you should be able to kill the test. Best of luck to you, from one former consultant to a current one :wink:

theLastZion
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby theLastZion » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:31 pm

With a 158 you will not get into any law schools that wouldn't be a massive step backwards for you at this point. With McKinsey on your resume you should be able to get into a good b-school. I've taken both tests and the GMAT is easier reading comp and logical reasoning problems plus math and grammar. IMO it's a little more intuitive than the LSAT as well.

e: I also found GMAT to be far easier, but I'm really good at math. Some poeple find some things easier, and other people find some other things easier!!!!

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irie
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Re: Anyone take the GMATs or consider bus. school after the LSAT

Postby irie » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:53 pm

lawschooloneday wrote:
irie wrote:
lawschooloneday wrote:All right, so here is my story.


I took the GMATs in between the CFAs and the LSAT, so not sure if this is applicable to your situation. However, I will say that of the 3 exams, the GMATs were by far the least stressful and easiest to study for. It helps that the exam dates are so often and flexible, but don't let that throw you off. Decide on a date for the test and stick to it, act as though you can not change it, and it will force you to study harder and stick to your schedule.

The format, obviously, is very different from the LSAT. Time is not such an issue as it is on the LSAT, and the questions require more on-the-spot calculating and thinking, as opposed to the LSAT where you've pretty much seen every type of question and just need to approach it using whatever system worked best for you on practice tests. It is certainly not a consistent exam like the LSAT, so you wont be scoring within a narrow range by test day, but if you are in the study mode from your LSAT prep then you will do just fine.

With your background I think you have a great shot at a top bschool, provided you can get good recommendations and a decent gmat score. And if McKinsey is willing to pay then I really don't see any reason not to go, if you are determined to get an professional degree. Unfortunately with 2 cancels and a 158, I'd say your chances at a top law school look a bit bleak, but its not completely out of question. Maybe you can look into Northwestern's JD/MBA program? I understand that for this you dont even need an LSAT score (see the Admissions FAQs), perhaps this applies to the JD-MBA program at some other top schools as well, but I don't know any off the top of my head. Worth a look, certainly.


http://www.jdmba.northwestern.edu/index.htm


Thanks, I am also considering now taking the CFA as well (My dream was financial law) . I feel like I can knock out that exam bc I have a pretty strong finance background. I will look into Northwestern, but I feel like my LSAT record pretty much screwed me over to any top 14 school (its my fault tho). Plus I have no good excuse (anxiety attacks do not qualify I assume) I just always had the dream of going to law school so its kinda hard to see that dream go (especially since I studied for the LSAT for over a year and a half). Thanks for your advice.

Did you take a prep course for the GMATs? Do you have any recommendations on how best to prepare?


I would only consider the CFAs if you are mulling a future career on the buy-side, aka investment management, alternative investments (PE, hedge funds, venture cap, etc.). It is ALOT of work. I studied harder for the CFAs than for the LSAT and GMAT combined, and that was only the first of III levels. On the whole CFAs was more time consuming, more stressful, and more expensive than any exam I have ever taken, and I've taken quite a few (including the series 7 and 63), so definitely do not approach it lightly, and take it for the right reasons.

I really think B-school is the way to go for you, and Northwestern's 3-year JD/MBA program sounds like an ideal fit for your interests (and LSAT situation). I didnt take a prep course for GMATs because I was working full-time and taking the Testmasters LSAT course simultaneously, and another course on top of that would've been too much to handle. However, I think if you want to get it right in one shot, go for the Manhattan GMAT course (assuming you live in NYC?). It is the course that every one of my friends has recommended to me, and if I could do everything over again I'd enroll in that.




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