Scores: 145, 171, 163

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bk1
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:12 pm

IBThatGuy wrote:Not sure I agree. I know I didn't kick butt yesterday, but I'd really like to know how I did, so I was wondering how much letting it stick would hurt me. I read the TLS interviews (http://www.top-law-schools.com/interviews.html) and searched every interview for "multiple." Here's the summary of how I classify the answers.

Noncommittal BS answer: Boston U (claim high, but sounds dubious)
Take high score: Northwestern, Drexel, Santa Clara, Richmond, Berkeley
Take average or all: Minnesota, Fordham, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Arizona State, Loyola, Cornell, Chicago

I'm tempted to toss Berkeley's response, since it was actually Ken's statement, simply affirmed (and not offered) by the interviewee (no blame pointed at Ken there).

So, of those 13, we've got one potential high-score-taker, four seemingly legitimate high-score-takers, and eight that average or claim to look at (as opposed to ssee) all of the scores. I'm not counting Berkeley for the reason mentioned. With Berkeley and Boston being outliers, it looks like the interest in all scores tends to go up with USNWR ranking. Northwestern would be an anomaly there, but not an outlier by my thinking. I saw another post earlier commenting that Harvard, Yale, and Stanford take averages, corroborating my analysis, which is, admittedly, based on a small sample. I trust the OP's girlfriend wasn't applying to HYS, though.

As far as advice goes, she should probably cool out a little before taking another test. If she doesn't have a consistent score in her practices, she definitely shouldn't take the real thing - and might not be well-advised to either way. She might consider waiting until that 145 expires (five years, I think). If I could pick any two of those scores, I'd like to have the 145 and the 171, since the 171 makes the 145 really look like it can be discounted, where the 163 is the score of someone who could at least end up in the same program as someone with a 171, and therefore closer to predictive. Having all three, though, could make her look more erratic, unpredictable, and even flaky than she probably is.


To be honest, I feel that taking adcomms at their word is probably not the best bet. They have an incentive to lie and say that "we look at admissions holistically" and "we don't have a cutoff" when those are pretty much blatant lies. Things like LSN are probably going to shed more light on the matter than the word of an adcomm.

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TheBigMediocre
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby TheBigMediocre » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:12 pm

IBThatGuy wrote:
bk1 wrote:Most schools are just going to look at the top score. They're not going to think "well because she has two 171's that makes her better."


Not sure I agree. I know I didn't kick butt yesterday, but I'd really like to know how I did, so I was wondering how much letting it stick would hurt me. I read the TLS interviews (http://www.top-law-schools.com/interviews.html) and searched every interview for "multiple." Here's the summary of how I classify the answers.

Noncommittal BS answer: Boston U (claim high, but sounds dubious)
Take high score: Northwestern, Drexel, Santa Clara, Richmond, Berkeley
Take average or all: Minnesota, Fordham, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Arizona State, Loyola, Cornell, Chicago

I'm tempted to toss Berkeley's response, since it was actually Ken's statement, simply affirmed (and not offered) by the interviewee (no blame pointed at Ken there).

So, of those 13, we've got one potential high-score-taker, four seemingly legitimate high-score-takers, and eight that average or claim to look at (as opposed to ssee) all of the scores. I'm not counting Berkeley for the reason mentioned. With Berkeley and Boston being outliers, it looks like the interest in all scores tends to go up with USNWR ranking. Northwestern would be an anomaly there, but not an outlier by my thinking. I saw another post earlier commenting that Harvard, Yale, and Stanford take averages, corroborating my analysis, which is, admittedly, based on a small sample. I trust the OP's girlfriend wasn't applying to HYS, though.

As far as advice goes, she should probably cool out a little before taking another test. If she doesn't have a consistent score in her practices, she definitely shouldn't take the real thing - and might not be well-advised to either way. She might consider waiting until that 145 expires (five years, I think). If I could pick any two of those scores, I'd like to have the 145 and the 171, since the 171 makes the 145 really look like it can be discounted, where the 163 is the score of someone who could at least end up in the same program as someone with a 171, and therefore closer to predictive. Having all three, though, could make her look more erratic, unpredictable, and even flaky than she probably is.


I don't know how old those interviews are, but I'm pretty sure conventional wisdom is it's just HYS/B that average now. There is even a spreadsheet out there someone created.

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kk19131
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby kk19131 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:13 pm

What's her hope for taking it again?

Surely she doesn't expect to do better than 171...

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Fark-o-vision » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:17 pm

I think what people have said is that law schools posture themselves like they average, but really don't. It's kind of a way for them to maybe take that 171, report it to USNAWR, but still have a reason to tell you your numbers are only average and you're stuck paying sticker.

By they way, I was under the impression that they didn't report scores that were more than two or three years old? Was I wrong?

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby trudat15 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:18 pm

kk19131 wrote:What's her hope for taking it again?

Surely she doesn't expect to do better than 171...



I think she does. Although judging by her practice problems, I'm dubious. To be fair, she just started studying after 9 months of nothing LSAT, but she thinks that another 170s would be good.
She also already signed up for the Oct LSAT, but I'm trying to convince her to just take the $138 or however much it is as a loss and concentrate on the application process.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby trudat15 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:19 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:I think what people have said is that law schools posture themselves like they average, but really don't. It's kind of a way for them to maybe take that 171, report it to USNAWR, but still have a reason to tell you your numbers are only average and you're stuck paying sticker.

By they way, I was under the impression that they didn't report scores that were more than two or three years old? Was I wrong?



I believe a score stays on your record for 5 years (actually it's six as you can actually use it during the fifth year to apply to schools) - ie - 2004 exams are taken off the record in July of this year.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:20 pm

trudat15 wrote:
kk19131 wrote:What's her hope for taking it again?

Surely she doesn't expect to do better than 171...



I think she does. Although judging by her practice problems, I'm dubious. To be fair, she just started studying after 9 months of nothing LSAT, but she thinks that another 170s would be good.
She also already signed up for the Oct LSAT, but I'm trying to convince her to just take the $138 or however much it is as a loss and concentrate on the application process.


Please keep trying! Honestly, if I saw someone with that sequence of scores I'm already thinking okay the retake was some bad judgment. Adding yet another retake on top of it makes her look obsessive in her bad judgment.

Aggiegrad2011
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Aggiegrad2011 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:23 pm

She can get a refund for the October LSAT right now, and save the money, at least.

I'd stay with the current score projection, but I'm still very green with this whole process.

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bk1
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:25 pm

trudat15 wrote:I think she does. Although judging by her practice problems, I'm dubious. To be fair, she just started studying after 9 months of nothing LSAT, but she thinks that another 170s would be good.
She also already signed up for the Oct LSAT, but I'm trying to convince her to just take the $138 or however much it is as a loss and concentrate on the application process.


Does she think that two 171's is significantly better than one? If so she is wrong.
Does she think that she has a legitimate reason why she would get 175+? If so, I'm gonna say that is probably not likely considering she got a 145.
Does she think that after getting two sub-170's that getting another sub-170 isn't a likely if not very probable risk? If so, she seems like she is not looking at the risks carefully enough.

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Ragged
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:33 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.
Last edited by Ragged on Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tautology
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:34 pm

Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.


You know what she regrets? That 163.

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kk19131
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby kk19131 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:36 pm

Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.



Say she retakes and gets 164... then what? Should she keep retaking so she "will not feel like she did everything she could"? I mean, if she takes your advice she should keep retaking until she scores 180...

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bk1
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:36 pm

Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.


I don't think this is the situation the OP's gf is in, at least not the way it seems from having read the OP's statements.

She seems like she is retaking so she can have two 170+ scores (i.e. two 171's) not so she can get a better score. I have no problem with the latter, but the former is not a good reason to retake when most schools no longer average.

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Ragged
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:37 pm

Tautology wrote:
Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.


You know what she regrets? That 163.


And how exactly did it hurt her? T14 sans HYS looks at highest. Also, its a sunk cost. Who cares now. Adding another 165 won't change the situation all that much.

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Ragged
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:38 pm

kk19131 wrote:
Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.



Say she retakes and gets 164... then what? Should she keep retaking so she "will not feel like she did everything she could"? I mean, if she takes your advice she should keep retaking until she scores 180...


She should retake as long as she a) wants to b) the cycle permits.

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Ragged
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.


I don't think this is the situation the OP's gf is in, at least not the way it seems from having read the OP's statements.


She seems like she is retaking so she can have two 170+ scores (i.e. two 171's) not so she can get a better score. I have no problem with the latter, but the former is not a good reason to retake when most schools no longer average.


I understand what you are getting at. But then would not getting a 170 really hurt her if most schools dont average? She seems to be hedged pretty well in either direction.

But my point is that if a person wants to retake they should. Some people are happy with 170, some aren't and only want a 175+ and good luck telling those people that 170 is already really good and they shouldn't retake. Its all a matter of drive. Its best to try everything to get the score you want, than not try and then regret that chance you didn't take. Espessially when the downside is minimal.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:44 pm

Well that 163 fucked her out of HYS, and NYU.

She needs to stop.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Ragged wrote:
kk19131 wrote:
Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.



Say she retakes and gets 164... then what? Should she keep retaking so she "will not feel like she did everything she could"? I mean, if she takes your advice she should keep retaking until she scores 180...


She should retake as long as she a) wants to b) the cycle permits.


This is really terrible advice. The downside isn't small, the upside is extremely small and unlikely given what her boyfriend and past record have shown. She doesn't even seem to expect to improve on the 171, just match it. Last time, she far from matched it. This idea that people should do any self-destructive thing just because they want to is stupid. They shouldn't.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby TCScrutinizer » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:50 pm

This person sounds like they need anxiety meds. OP nail her, please.

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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:50 pm

Tautology wrote:
Ragged wrote:
kk19131 wrote:
Ragged wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys on this. If she wants to retake, let her retake. Otherwise she will not feel like she did everything she could and might regret it later. Instead of discouraging her you should help her get the motivation needed to get the score she needs.

Great majority of schools look at highest anyway. And she isn't getting into HYS with that 145 anyway. So I don't think getting another 165 can hurt her all that much. On the other hand getting a 172 might help her greatly.


Also, just because she got a 145 a long time ago, does not in any manner indicate that she can't get 170+ in October.



Say she retakes and gets 164... then what? Should she keep retaking so she "will not feel like she did everything she could"? I mean, if she takes your advice she should keep retaking until she scores 180...


She should retake as long as she a) wants to b) the cycle permits.


This is really terrible advice. The downside isn't small, the upside is extremely small and unlikely given what her boyfriend and past record have shown. She doesn't even seem to expect to improve on the 171, just match it. Last time, she far from matched it. This idea that people should do any self-destructive thing just because they want to is stupid. They shouldn't.


Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?

09042014
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:52 pm

Ragged wrote:
Tautology wrote:
Ragged wrote:
kk19131 wrote:

Say she retakes and gets 164... then what? Should she keep retaking so she "will not feel like she did everything she could"? I mean, if she takes your advice she should keep retaking until she scores 180...


She should retake as long as she a) wants to b) the cycle permits.


This is really terrible advice. The downside isn't small, the upside is extremely small and unlikely given what her boyfriend and past record have shown. She doesn't even seem to expect to improve on the 171, just match it. Last time, she far from matched it. This idea that people should do any self-destructive thing just because they want to is stupid. They shouldn't.


Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?


I'd ding her for being a weirdo moron.

"Enjoy BU, gunner" - Dean DF.

Tautology
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Ragged wrote:
Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?


I'd ding her for being a weirdo moron.

"Enjoy BU, gunner" - Dean DF.

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Ragged
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Ragged wrote:Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?


I'd ding her for being a weirdo moron.

"Enjoy BU, gunner" - Dean DF.


Not when you are worried about reporting a 171 LSAT median or facing sacking.

09042014
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:01 pm

Ragged wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Ragged wrote:Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?


I'd ding her for being a weirdo moron.

"Enjoy BU, gunner" - Dean DF.


Not when you are worried about reporting a 171 LSAT median or facing sacking.


I'd take some retard splitter like waterman first. At least he'd be entertaining on bar review.

Tautology
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Re: Scores: 145, 171, 163

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:02 pm

Ragged wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Ragged wrote:Is 145, 171, 163 all that different from 145, 171, 163, 164 when we talk about schools that take the highest?


I'd ding her for being a weirdo moron.

"Enjoy BU, gunner" - Dean DF.


Not when you are worried about reporting a 171 LSAT median or facing sacking.


Yep, that's exactly how admissions works. "Admit the 171 weirdo moron or you're fired!"




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