Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Xnegd » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:27 pm

Hey-O wrote: Totally off-topic: New Zealand? Wow! That is really far away from Ireland. Why would you take it so far away?


Because if I spend all the money just for a test (think hotel, ticket, food, etc), it'd have to be my yearly vacation as well. I really woudln't want London to be my vacation, so I'd want it to be at Austrailia, or New Zealand, or soemwhere where they speak English, but is still differant and relaxing.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:29 pm

SarahBeth wrote:For the record Rocketman11, Helen Keller graduated cum laude from Radcliffe. Just because she was Deaf-blind does not mean she was incapable. Also, just because people know more than the common definition and recognize an ambiguity does not make them stupid or incapable of being a lawyer. I am personally offended about your remarks. Are you going to next compare these people to a different minority group because you find them less capable?


Hot damn, way to hit it out of the park on your first post!

sca218ml
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:58 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby sca218ml » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:39 pm

One proposal: What if people just aren't used to grouping things twice (something that had to be done in this game) and THAT explains why people were confused?

This was an odd game. People do a lot of prep for LSAT and it's easy to fall into a pattern of saying, oh we are grouping, well let's put these variables in the nice slots I've drawn up. It's an interesting thought. There had to be people (maybe some of the same people complaining but who knows*) who just didn't read it closely and just assumed that's the way things were being grouped.

It was a hard game. It was not like many other games on LSATs past (with the 2 groupings necesary) but NEWS FLASH: Every LSAT the LSAC folks come up with has a new wrinkle on games that hasn't been explored before.

*Speaks to a point I made earlier: How is LSAC to know who "legitimately" misinterpreted the word and who just didn't read closely enough or simply didn't get the game?

PS. I love the guy who said he was pissed because he was relying on LG because he was bad at RC. Well maybe if you weren't bad at RC.....

Mike19
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Mike19 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:49 pm

know whats even more annoying?

reading this entire post and still having no idea what word you're referring to.

User avatar
Ragged
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Ragged » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:50 pm

Mike19 wrote:know whats even more annoying?

reading this entire post and still having no idea what word you're referring to.


Lets just say it has letters and means stuff. You know what I'm talking about, right?

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:50 pm

Mike19 wrote:know whats even more annoying?

reading this entire post and still having no idea what word you're referring to.


Really?

Mike19
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Mike19 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
Mike19 wrote:know whats even more annoying?

reading this entire post and still having no idea what word you're referring to.


Really?


Ya...PM? haha

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:55 pm

Mike19 wrote:Ya...PM? haha


No. There is literally a post of someone who read through and found the word and then replied with the word in this thread. Meaning that it is possible to figure out the word from the information provided and that even if you can't, someone did the legwork for you and posted the word already, so just find it.

d34d9823
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:06 pm

SarahBeth wrote:
8 June 2010

Dear LSAC Representative,

I am writing in regard to an ongoing debate about the 4th game in the June 2010 Logic Games (Analytical Reasoning) section.

It has come to my attention that a group of test takers feel there was an injustice in this game and that “_____” was a word open to interpretation. I am writing on behalf of all those test takers with an elementary-level grasp of the English language in hopes that you remain resolved in not making accommodations for a potentially vocal minority, thus altering the curve placement for the rest of us.

Access to law school seems to be no longer restricted by LSAT performance. Due to factors outside of LSAC's control, such as an ABA accreditation process only slightly more selective than an ACORN voter registration drive, individuals obviously not qualified to give legal counsel are somehow still finding their way to Juris Doctorates and even bar passage. No matter how many large blocks and trip wires we put in front of these legal Helen Kellers, they remain resolute that a future of affairs with breast-augmented paralegals and career highways ending in SCOTUS nominations are not only earned them, but necessarily expected.

It is a tricky thing, the English language. Words can have multiple denotations and various connotations. The inability of over caffeinated virgins to correctly ascertain skin-deep, basic instructions is troubling to those such as me who fear that the legal market will never fully recover. Sarah Palin and responsibility. Miss Teen South Carolina and intelligence. Thomas M Cooley Law students and jurisprudence. Like a brothel and crabs, it seems clear to most of us that some things should not be mixed together for the betterment of society. I hope that if we can demand nothing else from our aspiring legal scholars, we require that they can color within the lines, breath through their nose and comprehend words.

Thanks for all your hard work!

Sincerely,

Rocketman11


For the record Rocketman11, Helen Keller graduated cum laude from Radcliffe. Just because she was Deaf-blind does not mean she was incapable. Also, just because people know more than the common definition and recognize an ambiguity does not make them stupid or incapable of being a lawyer. I am personally offended about your remarks. Are you going to next compare these people to a different minority group because you find them less capable?

Bahaha welcome to TLS.

And BTW, people who misread ambiguities on questions are totally just like Asian people.

perspective
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:02 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby perspective » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:22 pm

I wish I knew what everyone was talking about. I didn't think that any of the LG were particularly difficult or ambiguous.

Thanks for making me nervous for the next few weeks...

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:37 pm

The fact that people had to go to the 5th definition of the word in question in a dictionary shows how far they were reaching here.

There was no ambiguity. There were rules about one of the grouping elements, then there were rules about the other. The "ambiguous" term used in the rule in question was stated completely in context.

I can't wait for this test to be released, so you guys can simply realize that stress, nerves, and an honest mistake caused your perceived ambiguity, not a real ambiguity in the rule.

simpson89
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:58 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby simpson89 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:06 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:The fact that people had to go to the 5th definition of the word in question in a dictionary shows how far they were reaching here.

There was no ambiguity. There were rules about one of the grouping elements, then there were rules about the other. The "ambiguous" term used in the rule in question was stated completely in context.

I can't wait for this test to be released, so you guys can simply realize that stress, nerves, and an honest mistake caused your perceived ambiguity, not a real ambiguity in the rule.


After reading all of this, God forbid, if I remember correctly, it was the second definition in MW and the fifth on the internet dictionary. I'm not trolling, but they OP does make a valid point in the ambiguity of the word in question. Especially in the case of journalists, or their assistants, the word has a distinct possibility of being taken two ways. Myself, I didn't do exceptionally well on this game, and I accredit that to both timing error and (for sake of keeping argumentation directed at myself down) the alleged ambiguity.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:10 pm

simpson89 wrote:I'm not trolling, but they OP does make a valid point in the ambiguity of the word in question. Especially in the case of journalists, or their assistants, the word has a distinct possibility of being taken two ways. Myself, I didn't do exceptionally well on this game, and I accredit that to both timing error and (for sake of keeping argumentation directed at myself down) the alleged ambiguity.


No.

Casus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:25 am

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Casus » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:27 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:"A candidate who has taken the LSAT and whose answer to a question has not been scored as the “credited response” (i.e., has been scored incorrect) is entitled to have the question reviewed pursuant to the following policy if, within 90 days after a score report is sent to the candidate, he or she files with LSAC an initial written inquiry about, or challenge to, the scoring of the question, stating and supporting the reasons why the credited response is not the one and only best answer to the question."

It says that candidates may have questions reviewed within 90 days after receiving a score report. It doesn't say whether a candidate can ask for a review prior to the release of score reports.


I didn't take the test, so I have no idea what the crucial deduction was, nor do I know what the alternative answer choices were for the game's questions.

That said, it would seem that an appeal has little chance of succeeding, at least from a casual review the information in this thread. Namely, whether the question was ambiguous is not the major consideration according to the LSAC policy. Part of the requirement for removing a question from scoring is that a petitioner demonstrate that "the credited response is not the one and only best answer to the question." If no other answer choices were correct under an alternative definition of the term in question, there could not have been another "best answer to the question." Consequently, the "one and only best answer to the question" would have been the one that relied on a correct interpretation of the term in question.

In other words, even if we grant that no answer choices appeared to be correct under a certain definition of the term in question, such a fact would still not rise to the level necessary to overturn a question if LSAC abides by the aforementioned policy.

Whether that is fair or not in the context of this debate is a wholly separate question.

User avatar
queenlizzie13
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:30 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby queenlizzie13 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:42 pm

It is good to know that I was not the only one who thought the rule meant something other than it did. That being said, I am probably still going to cancel my score. I admittedly was rattled after the games section, which is normally my best, and it affected reading comprehension most noticeably.

The times I've scored 170+ on practice tests are the times when I miss zero on games to make up for the times where I have, on occasion, missed 4-5 questions on an LR section (the other LR I generally miss 2-3 on). One is always a bit easier for me than the other for some reason. That being said I thought the LR section was completely reasonable this time around and definitely easier than some of the past few LSATs that have been administered.

Nevertheless, I did write in a formal inquiry to LSAC despite the fact that I will probably end up canceling my score. What I merely wrote was that they merely review this matter, and that I also understood if nothing could be done because this would affect a large portion of the test should the game be completely tossed out. I also hope that by writing to the LSAC they will be a bit more careful on future tests to use "clear and unambiguous" wording as is their policy.

Further, I must address another comment in this thread. I do not think we were "reaching" by going back to a fifth definition in the dictionary. Given the context and setup of the game I think it was quite rational to deduce that the word meant something other than it actually did. In addition to this ambiguous term, game three was not exactly a cakewalk either. I got the key deduction eventually, but it left me with a shorter amount of time for the fourth game than I originally hoped, making for quite a difficult games section.

I support those who have written to LSAC regarding this matter. Though it may not affect the June LSAT whatsoever, I am hoping that subsequent LSATs will be laid out with more care, especially in the LG section.

Mike088
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Mike088 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:47 pm

Wow, i guess i was not the only one. this totally threw me off :(.

Nola
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Nola » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:29 pm

Is this truly an anomaly or are there always discussions about bad questions on the LSAT? I found the games a bit difficult and I was generally really good at the games. The whole test for me was a blur. I don't remember much of it.

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby FuManChusco » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:34 pm

Nola wrote:Is this truly an anomaly or are there always discussions about bad questions on the LSAT? I found the games a bit difficult and I was generally really good at the games. The whole test for me was a blur. I don't remember much of it.


I think people always complain about difficulty due to anxiety and post-test stress. I don't think people normally start threads to challenge LSAC to get rid of an entire game.

Nola
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby Nola » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:38 pm

So then it appears that this truly was a very challenging game or there is something to the ambiguous terminology in the game in question.

Please excuse the false dilemma flaw in my reasoning.

I ended up guessing through the last few questions on game four. What were the actual answers? If it is legal to say so of course.

User avatar
queenlizzie13
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:30 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby queenlizzie13 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm

Nola wrote:So then it appears that this truly was a very challenging game or there is something to the ambiguous terminology in the game in question.

Please excuse the false dilemma flaw in my reasoning.

I ended up guessing through the last few questions on game four. What were the actual answers? If it is legal to say so of course.


It is definitely NOT legal to say what the actual answers were. For that one must wait until the test is released much later on in the month.

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby FuManChusco » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:44 pm

Nola wrote:So then it appears that this truly was a very challenging game or there is something to the ambiguous terminology in the game in question.

Please excuse the false dilemma flaw in my reasoning.

I ended up guessing through the last few questions on game four. What were the actual answers? If it is legal to say so of course.


replying with answers will get a ban. mods stickied a topic about this. this wasn't that challenging of a game. I just think a few people freaked out because they misread a rule and now they're shifting the blame. I think it's a vocal minority in all honesty. seems rather pointless to me.

karcirate
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby karcirate » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:52 pm

It just pisses me off that I had no problem with the word in question, didn't even notice any ambiguity, but still didn't f'in figure out the now obvious deduction that only one of the two possible templates was possible. I still know I got at least 3-4 right, so I think I want the game scored... but who knows, once I see my results, that may change :) Thanks guys for giving me an opening to complain. (JK... I'm not one of those people...)

bpas
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:03 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby bpas » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:19 pm

I'll chime in with everyone else. I highly doubt anything could get changed but I'd love it if you did. LG's are always my strength and for some reason I started off with this game and it killed me. I think I got all of the other 3 question sets right but I would guess I got 3 right on the 4th game and guess on the rest. I don't know how the curve works but it seems like a lot of people really struggled with this game.

User avatar
cinefile 17
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:32 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby cinefile 17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:20 pm

sca218ml wrote:PS. I love the guy who said he was pissed because he was relying on LG because he was bad at RC. Well maybe if you weren't bad at RC.....


If you're referring to me...

First off, not a guy (pretty presumptuous of you). And I also didn't say I was bad at RC. I usually rock the RC along with the rest of the sections. I just happened to be warn out on test day (the testing ended up taking 7 hours b.c. it was really unorganized) and I had 2 RC sections (one of them being the last section). I don't think I did that bad on the RC, but I know I did awesome on the games. My point is only that those of us that did well on the games want/need that section to help boost our scores.

Why be so rude?

I'm genuinely sorry for those of you who missed the game section b.c. of the ambiguity. It sucks, and I would want someone to empathize with me if I were in your shoes. But, kindness is a virtue and there's no need to be insulting.

User avatar
citrustang
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:22 pm

Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section

Postby citrustang » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:23 pm

Casus wrote:That said, it would seem that an appeal has little chance of succeeding, at least from a casual review the information in this thread. Namely, whether the question was ambiguous is not the major consideration according to the LSAC policy. Part of the requirement for removing a question from scoring is that a petitioner demonstrate that "the credited response is not the one and only best answer to the question." If no other answer choices were correct under an alternative definition of the term in question, there could not have been another "best answer to the question." Consequently, the "one and only best answer to the question" would have been the one that relied on a correct interpretation of the term in question.

In other words, even if we grant that no answer choices appeared to be correct under a certain definition of the term in question, such a fact would still not rise to the level necessary to overturn a question if LSAC abides by the aforementioned policy.

Whether that is fair or not in the context of this debate is a wholly separate question.

Casus, thanks for the input. We need thoughtful posts from both camps. I appreciate your directness and obvious effort in formulating your response. The above described process seems wholly applicable when we are dealing with LR. In the past, LR questions have been the only ones successfully challenged, and I imagine both clarity of language and the potential for more than one correct answer were demonstrated before the question was eventually thrown out. The difficulty here is that LG is an entirely different beast. A perceived ambiguity in the setup of an LG does not immediately become apparent. You could conceivably attempt several questions before noticing something is off. And in fact, adopting the incorrect interpretation did lead to certain questions having multiple "correct answers" or even "no incorrect ones." Hence, even though the situations do not appear analogous at first, the end results end up being very similar.
Last edited by citrustang on Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot], Pozzo, Screech Owl and 7 guests