All I can do is decide whether or not to send in a challenge. After that, all decisions must be left up to the discretion of the LSAC. I won't presume to tell them how to do their jobs.minsookim wrote:so.. exactly what do you want LSAC to do?
a) throw out the entire game set? or
b) give us an awesome curve?
throwing out the entire game set is not fair for the people who struggled through it and got it right, even partially.
what LSAC should do is just accept the fact that they made a mistake on LG,
which should not have any ambiguity in wording, and give us a nice curve
(-14/-15 as it has happened in somewhere in PT20s).
Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section Forum
- citrustang
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Last edited by citrustang on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- 380yarddrives
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I agree. I think the game was very tough, but it wasn't because of the ambiguity of that word.eskimo wrote:I think after the test was over some people forgot that the phrase used was "trained in the same _______", which is crystal clear. I didn't think the game was easy, but the phrasing wasn't ambiguous. Sorry.
Mods - if that's too specific, I can remove it!
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
i am asking your opinion - what you want, not what you can do.citrustang wrote:All I can do is decide whether or not to send in a challenge. After that, all decisions must be left up the discretion of the LSAC. I won't presume to tell them how to do their jobs.minsookim wrote:so.. exactly what do you want LSAC to do?
a) throw out the entire game set? or
b) give us an awesome curve?
throwing out the entire game set is not fair for the people who struggled through it and got it right, even partially.
what LSAC should do is just accept the fact that they made a mistake on LG,
which should not have any ambiguity in wording, and give us a nice curve
(-14/-15 as it has happened in somewhere in PT20s).
you sounded like a politician there.
for a challenge, do i must send it using a fax machine?
i prefer to send it using an email.
- citrustang
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Yes, you can send an email. I am choosing to not disclose what I think should happen (to avoid needlessly inciting anxiety in others). I found what I "believe to be an error or ambiguity in a test question that affect[ed] [my] response to the question," so I am writing to the LSAC. If you had a similar experience, I would encourage you to write as well.citrustang wrote:(http://www.lsac.org/AboutLSAC/faqs-and- ... #questions)LSAC FAQ Page wrote:How can I inquire about a test question?
If, while taking the LSAT, you find what you believe to be an error or ambiguity in a test question that affects your response to the question, report it to the test supervisor as soon as you finish the test and write immediately to: Law School Admission Council, Test Development, 662 Penn Street, Box 40, Newtown, PA 18940-0040. You may also contact us by e-mail at LSATTS@LSAC.org. The LSAC document, Policies and Procedures Governing Challenges to Law School Admission Test Questions PDF Icon can be found here.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
380yarddrives wrote:I agree. I think the game was very tough, but it wasn't because of the ambiguity of that word.eskimo wrote:I think after the test was over some people forgot that the phrase used was "trained in the same _______", which is crystal clear. I didn't think the game was easy, but the phrasing wasn't ambiguous. Sorry.
Mods - if that's too specific, I can remove it!
you guys are missing the point.
if you did not struggle with the wording then that is fine and good for you.
but it seems like there are a plenty of people who had trouble with the word in question,
and if the test caused trouble due not to its complexity but to its wording, it is a poorly written one.
plus, if the game was indeed very tough as you say, then there should've been absolutely no ambiguity for people who could
interpret the rule other way and fuck up the diagram and go panic and die heart-attack.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I've been following this thread somewhat silently. I wasn't at all sure if I agreed with Citrus until this clarification. I didn't interpret it wrongly on the test. I didn't even consider the "wrong" interpretation. I think I should have. There was, in retrospect, no very legitimate reason to think that the word in question referred to the type of internship rather than the area they were covering. They were both certainly <insert word in question>s. <word in question> wouldnt rightly refer to a geographic location itself, but it certainly would refer to one if it was a subject matter, which is certainly the case. So I just want to give Citrus my encouragement. That is indeed a pretty egregious error on the part of LSAC. I did every practice LG from PT 1 to 59 and I didn't, at least knowingly, encounter such a massive ambiguity. I can see how it could be overlooked, however. Hopefully LSAC will do something (don't know what) to make this right-ish.citrustang wrote:I received an interesting idea via PM. I will not disclose the sender's identity because it seems reasonable to assume he/she wanted to remain anonymous. Feel free to step forward if would like to do so.
According to the PM, even if you refuse to believe common usage permits the word in question to be used to describe different locations, common usage allows for it to be used to characterize subject matter. The word can just as easily be used to refer to different professions as it can be used to distinguish between topics or areas of interest.MW-online wrote:2 a : an area or division of an activity, subject, or profession
So with my full encouragement and support, good work Citrus. Let me know if there is anything anyone else can do to help present this argument.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
thanks,citrustang wrote:Yes, you can send an email. I am choosing to not disclose what I think should happen (to avoid needlessly inciting anxiety in others). I found what I "believe to be an error or ambiguity in a test question that affect[ed] [my] response to the question," so I am writing to the LSAC. If you had a similar experience, I would encourage you to write as well.citrustang wrote:(http://www.lsac.org/AboutLSAC/faqs-and- ... #questions)LSAC FAQ Page wrote:How can I inquire about a test question?
If, while taking the LSAT, you find what you believe to be an error or ambiguity in a test question that affects your response to the question, report it to the test supervisor as soon as you finish the test and write immediately to: Law School Admission Council, Test Development, 662 Penn Street, Box 40, Newtown, PA 18940-0040. You may also contact us by e-mail at LSATTS@LSAC.org. The LSAC document, Policies and Procedures Governing Challenges to Law School Admission Test Questions PDF Icon can be found here.
though i managed to finish the game right before the time was called,
this LG section affected my overall performance for the subsequent sections.
hence i do not want the game to be thrown out completely but rather we all get a mercy curve.
simple and be happy everyone.
but who knows what LSAC will do, high chance they will just ignore us.
- CryingMonkey
- Posts: 148
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I have a lot of trouble with the argument that seems to be being made - namely, that because some number of people failed to understand the meaning of a word, the word was ambiguous. I'm not saying I interpreted the word correctly, because there was no interpretation needed; in the given context, there was only one correct meaning. Just because the word has another meaning that, if you stretch hard enough, could conceivably be used to describe another aspect of the game doesn't mean it was ambiguous; the context makes it absolutely clear. I have a lot of sympathy for people who made this mistake while under the gun; reading quickly, not paying attention to every word, mistakes happen. But it was a user error, not a faulty product. If citrus's argument is that LSAC should construct its games such that reading comprehension doesn't come into play, that's fine. But honestly, this test is supposed to be determining our suitability for admission to law school. The ability to correct interpret words based on their context is a necessary one for a lawyer. If you went before a judge with the argument that you misinterpreted a word because it had an alternate definition, even though the context made it clear what usage of the word was intended, I'd hope you wouldn't get very far.
"Your Honor, my client does not understand why he should have to pay for unenrolled pieces of legislation! The letter from the bank saying he had to pay his bills was clearly ambiguous!"
"Your Honor, when my client was told that he was being taxed, he thought that meant he was being worked hard, not having a levy placed upon him for the support of government!"
"Your Honor, please don't hold my client in contempt. When he was told he was to present himself to the court, he naturally thought he should show up wearing only wrapping paper and a bow!"
These arguments wouldn't fly, but I don't see that they are materially different. Particularly in the English language, words can have many meanings that can only be determined by context. The ability to do so is a skill that the LSAT should test, on any section.
(I'm going to feel silly when I get my score back and I bombed this section, but I'll acknowledge my mistake. And I don't mean that in the sense of "express appreciation or gratitude.")
"Your Honor, my client does not understand why he should have to pay for unenrolled pieces of legislation! The letter from the bank saying he had to pay his bills was clearly ambiguous!"
"Your Honor, when my client was told that he was being taxed, he thought that meant he was being worked hard, not having a levy placed upon him for the support of government!"
"Your Honor, please don't hold my client in contempt. When he was told he was to present himself to the court, he naturally thought he should show up wearing only wrapping paper and a bow!"
These arguments wouldn't fly, but I don't see that they are materially different. Particularly in the English language, words can have many meanings that can only be determined by context. The ability to do so is a skill that the LSAT should test, on any section.
(I'm going to feel silly when I get my score back and I bombed this section, but I'll acknowledge my mistake. And I don't mean that in the sense of "express appreciation or gratitude.")
- Mike12188
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I have no idea what word or phrase you guys are taking about, I hope that means I interpreted it correctly. I mean it was a hard game but I don't remember anything being unclear. If anyone could PM me and help me understand it would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
No, the word in question could mean both a subject matter and a profession.CryingMonkey wrote:I have a lot of trouble with the argument that seems to be being made - namely, that because some number of people failed to understand the meaning of a word, the word was ambiguous. I'm not saying I interpreted the word correctly, because there was no interpretation needed; in the given context, there was only one correct meaning. Just because the word has another meaning that, if you stretch hard enough, could conceivably be used to describe another aspect of the game doesn't mean it was ambiguous; the context makes it absolutely clear. I have a lot of sympathy for people who made this mistake while under the gun; reading quickly, not paying attention to every word, mistakes happen. But it was a user error, not a faulty product. If citrus's argument is that LSAC should construct its games such that reading comprehension doesn't come into play, that's fine. But honestly, this test is supposed to be determining our suitability for admission to law school. The ability to correct interpret words based on their context is a necessary one for a lawyer. If you went before a judge with the argument that you misinterpreted a word because it had an alternate definition, even though the context made it clear what usage of the word was intended, I'd hope you wouldn't get very far.
"Your Honor, my client does not understand why he should have to pay for unenrolled pieces of legislation! The letter from the bank saying he had to pay his bills was clearly ambiguous!"
"Your Honor, when my client was told that he was being taxed, he thought that meant he was being worked hard, not having a levy placed upon him for the support of government!"
"Your Honor, please don't hold my client in contempt. When he was told he was to present himself to the court, he naturally thought he should show up wearing only wrapping paper and a bow!"
These arguments wouldn't fly, but I don't see that they are materially different. Particularly in the English language, words can have many meanings that can only be determined by context. The ability to do so is a skill that the LSAT should test, on any section.
(I'm going to feel silly when I get my score back and I bombed this section, but I'll acknowledge my mistake. And I don't mean that in the sense of "express appreciation or gratitude.")
It is ambiguous because both are legitimate interpretations; the rules and the context did not show strong connection.
What you are putting in quotes are illegitimate interpretations.
The two are different.
Last edited by loptimist on Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
You seem to be saying that the context was also clear? When there are more than one categories to which a certain word may be applied, and in each category that word fits equally well, there is a problem.The ability to correctly interpret words based on their context is a necessary one for a lawyer.
If you think everyone should be able to determine usage in context, I am with you 100% percent.
But if you think everyone should be able to see usage that can be applied to two contexts, and make a decision about that context without any prompting to do so (i.e. lack of instructive clues), then you are making a mistake.
Please don't assume that someone has to be able to make unwarranted assumptions to be a successful lawyer. That is simply absurd.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
This did seem clear to me at the time. Or at least I assumed the right thing during the test. But I don't think the context makes it perfectly clear at all. Training could be in either the subject covered or the type of internship taken..380yarddrives wrote:I agree. I think the game was very tough, but it wasn't because of the ambiguity of that word.eskimo wrote:I think after the test was over some people forgot that the phrase used was "trained in the same _______", which is crystal clear. I didn't think the game was easy, but the phrasing wasn't ambiguous. Sorry.
Mods - if that's too specific, I can remove it!
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
It was not ambiguous, trust me. Try to use it in a sentence referring to a geographic region. It will sound wrong, because it is wrong.
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- balzern
- Posts: 347
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I know this is a long shot but hopefully you can influence the curve even a little bit. I know that is unlikely, but even so, it couldn't hurt to try! Good luck dude!
- Knock
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Me too. Anything that benefits me I am for .balzern wrote:I know this is a long shot but hopefully you can influence the curve even a little bit. I know that is unlikely, but even so, it couldn't hurt to try! Good luck dude!
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
does anybody remember the exact wording of those clues, aside the offending word? there is no point arguing if it was ambiguous without the context
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
.. unless the geographical region is a subject of study or something one is reporting on or something one works with..bk187 wrote:It was not ambiguous, trust me. Try to use it in a sentence referring to a geographic region. It will sound wrong, because it is wrong.
Say, a scholar studying Iran. Or a reporter covering North Korea.
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- Dany
- Posts: 11559
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
PM'dyoiav wrote:does anybody remember the exact wording of those clues, aside the offending word? there is no point arguing if it was ambiguous without the context
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
pm'd? i'm new to this websiteeskimo wrote:PM'dyoiav wrote:does anybody remember the exact wording of those clues, aside the offending word? there is no point arguing if it was ambiguous without the context
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Wrong. Use the word from the test. It will not fit. I am not saying that a geographical region cannot be the subject of study, I am saying that if it is it still cannot be used in conjunction with the "ambiguous" word.apropos wrote:.. unless the geographical region is a subject of study or something one is reporting on or something one works with..bk187 wrote:It was not ambiguous, trust me. Try to use it in a sentence referring to a geographic region. It will sound wrong, because it is wrong.
Say, a scholar studying Iran. Or a reporter covering North Korea.
- Dany
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Sent you a private message; we're not allowed to post question specifics on the boards.yoiav wrote:pm'd? i'm new to this websiteeskimo wrote:PM'dyoiav wrote:does anybody remember the exact wording of those clues, aside the offending word? there is no point arguing if it was ambiguous without the context
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Look at the top left corner and click on "1 new message"yoiav wrote:pm'd? i'm new to this websiteeskimo wrote:PM'dyoiav wrote:does anybody remember the exact wording of those clues, aside the offending word? there is no point arguing if it was ambiguous without the context
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
Done. It fits.bk187 wrote:Wrong. Use the word from the test. It will not fit. I am not saying that a geographical region cannot be the subject of study, I am saying that if it is it still cannot be used in conjunction with the "ambiguous" word.apropos wrote:.. unless the geographical region is a subject of study or something one is reporting on or something one works with..bk187 wrote:It was not ambiguous, trust me. Try to use it in a sentence referring to a geographic region. It will sound wrong, because it is wrong.
Say, a scholar studying Iran. Or a reporter covering North Korea.
It definitely does not fit as naturally, and definitely seems like a somewhat odd way to read it immediately, which is why I hadnt even considered this problem until I read this thread. If somewhat someone whispered this ambiguity in my ear while I was taking the test, I wouldve second-guessed myself.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
It does not fit naturally at all and is incredibly odd.apropos wrote:Done. It fits.
It definitely does not fit as naturally, and definitely seems like a somewhat odd way to read it immediately, which is why I hadnt even considered this problem until I read this thread. If somewhat somehow whispered this ambiguity in my ear while I was taking the test, I wouldve second-guessed myself.
I'm not saying that it isn't grammatically correct when used this way (it is). I'm saying that it is not something any native English speaker would ever say, thus there is no reason for anyone to ever read the test as if it means it that way.
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Re: Official challenge to the 4th game in the scored LG section
I think test day nerves are a good explanation. The problem is that LSAC will not think so. *Fingers crossed for a slight bump in the equating scale*bk187 wrote:It does not fit naturally at all and is incredibly odd.apropos wrote:Done. It fits.
It definitely does not fit as naturally, and definitely seems like a somewhat odd way to read it immediately, which is why I hadnt even considered this problem until I read this thread. If somewhat somehow whispered this ambiguity in my ear while I was taking the test, I wouldve second-guessed myself.
I'm not saying that it isn't grammatically correct when used this way (it is). I'm saying that it is not something any native English speaker would ever say, thus there is no reason for anyone to ever read the test as if it means it that way.
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