How much cheating do you think there's going on?

RPK34
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby RPK34 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:25 pm

mst wrote:LSAC doesn't doubt your ability to figure out which one is experimental if you're copying... They doubt your ability to perform to the same level on it as the real ones (which you would be copying), because typically the person your copying off of doesn't have that experimental.


Huh?

You could be the only one in the room taking a test and you could hypothetically figure it out, granted it was not a LR section (and it wouldn't work on some situations with LG/RC)

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acrossthelake
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:27 pm

barnum wrote:The time zone thing has been tried as well

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/27/local/me-58227


Ha wow.

"When I think of the aggravation that I went through to take the LSAT . . . [this crime] is an insult to everyone who studied legitimately," said Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Larry P. Fidler during the sentencing hearing.

Beautiful.

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goawaybee
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby goawaybee » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Just seems like way TOO MUCH work. Granted I am most certain that there are some excellent criminals who have passed the bar but damn. I mean sure run to the bathroom, send some texts, make a call whatever you can swing in 2-3 minutes but nothing to make a dent. One of those things. You need to WHOLE package and time to analyze it properly and make sure answers are matching with questions, sections blah blah. Just easier to study, take your licks even if you don't score that well. I have so much integrity if I felt shaky about my performance and thought there was a 128 score coming through I wouldn't cancel, but I really do enjoy a challenge. The whole LSAT heist is just not worth the weak ass return on time invested nor the risk associated.

For those that ponder this kind of thing, if you pull it off well good for you. For those that think about it for more than 15 minutes go fill out an application at starbucks, then run home and bust your ass studying after you start analyzing the alternatives.

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3|ink
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby 3|ink » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:30 pm

It's probably easier to study and get a 165 than it is to formulate a decent plan to cheat.

greg737
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby greg737 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:17 am

I'm just curious to how these things work, but how would they even figure out you copied answers? Outside of a proctor seeing you, of course. But, with everyone taking different sections at different times, how could they even tell? I mean, say there are a run on 10 answer choices that are the same between you and the person in front of you. Wouldn't them assuming you copied be making a "faulty assumption"?!

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acrossthelake
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:43 am

greg737 wrote:I'm just curious to how these things work, but how would they even figure out you copied answers? Outside of a proctor seeing you, of course. But, with everyone taking different sections at different times, how could they even tell? I mean, say there are a run on 10 answer choices that are the same between you and the person in front of you. Wouldn't them assuming you copied be making a "faulty assumption"?!


If for some reason you do way better on the actual instead of the experimental section.

mst
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby mst » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:57 am

Exactly, like I've said 10 times this week already. It's all about the experimental. If you copy off someone, great. But good luck being able to copy their experimental. Because it's probably not the same one as yours. LSAC looks for this electronically. If Bob scores perfect in every section but the experimental, LSAC looks into that persons seating chart. If someone next to him/etc got the same answers then that's a major flag and LSAT starts calling proctors (It's usually unlikely in these cases that they're not cheating if 2 people have the same answers, in the same room, while close to each other... how often are 2 people in the top 1% sitting next to eachother and one bombs the experimental section, and it's legitimate???).

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MarkRenton
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby MarkRenton » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:17 pm

barnum wrote:The time zone thing has been tried as well

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/27/local/me-58227


I can't believe they didn't tihnk they'd get caught. The article mentions that BOTH of their tests put them in an exclusive group of 150 test takers in the nations. Thus, they both must have gotten 180's. I'm sure anytime two 180s appear in the same room, a bit of looking will be done. When it's noticed that they're both California men jumping time zones...

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chadwick218
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby chadwick218 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:30 pm

rising 2L at NU ... sadly, a lot ... i brought one issue of blatant academic dishonesty to the administration and the dean of students elected to do nothing ...

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goawaybee
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby goawaybee » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:06 pm

chadwick218 wrote:rising 2L at NU ... sadly, a lot ... i brought one issue of blatant academic dishonesty to the administration and the dean of students elected to do nothing ...


at its core the entire game seems to be about honesty, fairness, truth, integrity, justice etc...BUT in real world/practical application...not so much. It is a business. Always a tough thing to swallow given where this is coming from and where it should be headed. It is a shame to watch it go down but I also don't think it is healthy to spend time being the finger pointer. You would be amazed out how the universe keeps things in balance without you having to get concerned with it, everyone gets put in their proper place.

The end result is that even if you are doing the right thing in terms of universals, people might not see it that way. Without the support of people you will find yourself alone, nobody trusts you, people out to get you, world just doesn't seem fair.

Do whatever it takes so you can sleep at night, just no reason to expend your precious energy/time trying to keep OTHERS in check. focus on you, plow through.

dollars and sense, if 1L, then boom that is 2 yrs of full tuition, you come and take 100k out of my bank acct. and tell me how to run my business....that is how I make sense of it. Sure it may go against your core principals, ethics, values but this is the real world. billions of other little people doing their thing. Kind of hard to get everyone to see eye to eye and or act right. If they did there wouldn't be much need for us in this field.

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beef wellington
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby beef wellington » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:55 pm

goawaybee wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:rising 2L at NU ... sadly, a lot ... i brought one issue of blatant academic dishonesty to the administration and the dean of students elected to do nothing ...


at its core the entire game seems to be about honesty, fairness, truth, integrity, justice etc...BUT in real world/practical application...not so much. It is a business. Always a tough thing to swallow given where this is coming from and where it should be headed. It is a shame to watch it go down but I also don't think it is healthy to spend time being the finger pointer. You would be amazed out how the universe keeps things in balance without you having to get concerned with it, everyone gets put in their proper place.

The end result is that even if you are doing the right thing in terms of universals, people might not see it that way. Without the support of people you will find yourself alone, nobody trusts you, people out to get you, world just doesn't seem fair.

Do whatever it takes so you can sleep at night, just no reason to expend your precious energy/time trying to keep OTHERS in check. focus on you, plow through.

dollars and sense, if 1L, then boom that is 2 yrs of full tuition, you come and take 100k out of my bank acct. and tell me how to run my business....that is how I make sense of it. Sure it may go against your core principals, ethics, values but this is the real world. billions of other little people doing their thing. Kind of hard to get everyone to see eye to eye and or act right. If they did there wouldn't be much need for us in this field.

You do realize there's a curve, right?

TOMaHULK
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby TOMaHULK » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:50 am

Let's face it though...people have probably tried it and gotten away with it before.

I wouldn't risk it because I would always live with the fear of getting caught, or the remorse over what I did (yes I'm too morally correct). But...a lot of people would, and probably have pulled it off before.

Where there's a will... :roll:

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goawaybee
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:57 am

Forgive for I had wandered off the path of the original post. was responding to chadwicks post which I was assuming was in regards to dishonest/unethical behavior while at school. I am not really worried about "others" conduct, I have my code and will die by it. Most of the older gents (60-70 yr olds) I have chilled with over the past few years kept heckling me and laughing at me, although they respected my stance they often found it funny that i was expecting other humans to care or have any moral/ethical standards. I then realized they were spot on.

Do your thing and don't lose sleep trying to save the others. Now when it comes to work/law etc...when you are forced to perform or execute what you have been trained to do, different story. I feel that if you draw a line and say that all those on this side (law students, lawyers, judges, so on) do X behind close doors, then when out in public Y transpires and everything continues... maintaining the status quo.

Every time you see a car accident train yourself to look the other way.


If you lack integrity, try and locate some, it comes at an obscenely high cost but IMHO it is well worth it. Just no TRUTH in cheating to get ahead, just too damn easy. I feel bad for those that cheat, similar to pathological liar types, keep talking enough shit in hopes of convincing the world that X is the case when deep down regardless how hard you try you will not be able to believe what is coming out of your mouth for it is not truth. (given that said individual is more or less sane)

JOThompson
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby JOThompson » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:02 am

My LSAC proctor adamantly claimed that 60% of test-takers engaged in some form of cheating. I found that a bit hard to believe.

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goawaybee
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:23 am

I believe it.

Simple things, little things are technically cheating correct. pencils down, don't peel the page back that extra little bit to notice what section is next etc...some of the stuff given the rule set is almost impossible to avoid especially when you are nervous and the clock is ticking.

I would say that seems to be a fair statement at 60% I would think a higher number but...

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invisiblesun
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby invisiblesun » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:57 am

goawaybee wrote:I believe it.

Simple things, little things are technically cheating correct. pencils down, don't peel the page back that extra little bit to notice what section is next etc...some of the stuff given the rule set is almost impossible to avoid especially when you are nervous and the clock is ticking.

I would say that seems to be a fair statement at 60% I would think a higher number but...


Technically yes, but most people wouldn't think of bubbling that last bubble a half-second after time as an equivalent transgression to something like setting up an elaborate pager scheme. The pages of the LSAT are thin- you can often see what type of section follows when you're on the last page, which can help you get into the appropriate mindset for that section; that being said, I wouldn't call someone who takes note of that a cheater.

TOMaHULK
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby TOMaHULK » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:33 am

goawaybee wrote:I believe it.

Simple things, little things are technically cheating correct. pencils down, don't peel the page back that extra little bit to notice what section is next etc...some of the stuff given the rule set is almost impossible to avoid especially when you are nervous and the clock is ticking.

I would say that seems to be a fair statement at 60% I would think a higher number but...


Sorry, but I respectfully have to disagree. Most people are too paranoid to attempt this. I mean, read the TLS forum, we over analyze everything.

I'd say that it's a single digit percentile that cheats. Of course I may be wrong, but overall I think that the majority just take their bumps and bruises. Naive? Most likely... :roll:

d34d9823
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby d34d9823 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:12 pm

TOMaHULK wrote:
goawaybee wrote:I believe it.

Simple things, little things are technically cheating correct. pencils down, don't peel the page back that extra little bit to notice what section is next etc...some of the stuff given the rule set is almost impossible to avoid especially when you are nervous and the clock is ticking.

I would say that seems to be a fair statement at 60% I would think a higher number but...


Sorry, but I respectfully have to disagree. Most people are too paranoid to attempt this. I mean, read the TLS forum, we over analyze everything.

I'd say that it's a single digit percentile that cheats. Of course I may be wrong, but overall I think that the majority just take their bumps and bruises. Naive? Most likely... :roll:

Yeah, normal people's cheating falls into two categories:
    - obvious
    - not very effective

Anything outside of this requires more planning and precision than 99% of test takers have.

Hey-O
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby Hey-O » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:23 pm

As a former high school teacher I know that cheaters can be quite creative and elegant in their attempts to cheat (why oh why don't they just study more). That being said I don't think that many people cheat on the LSAT. First, it is very hard to effectively get the correct answer. Second the penalties for cheating are very severe, much more severe than for most other testing situations.

I think cheating occurs but it is much more mundane and opportunistic. I saw it going on at my testing center. Bubbling after time, keeping the page of the book open after the test. Turning the page early, talking about the test in the hall. But most of that wouldn't really change a persons score.

TOMaHULK
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby TOMaHULK » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:33 am

Hey-O wrote:As a former high school teacher I know that cheaters can be quite creative and elegant in their attempts to cheat (why oh why don't they just study more). That being said I don't think that many people cheat on the LSAT. First, it is very hard to effectively get the correct answer. Second the penalties for cheating are very severe, much more severe than for most other testing situations.

I think cheating occurs but it is much more mundane and opportunistic. I saw it going on at my testing center. Bubbling after time, keeping the page of the book open after the test. Turning the page early, talking about the test in the hall. But most of that wouldn't really change a persons score.


I agree.

I'm sure people have cheated on it before though.


But those that do are to smart to get caught, hence we never hear about it. The ones that do get caught (i.e. 2 guys that took at Hawaii testing center), are pretty dumb.

You simply can't tell me with all the smart ass'd people out there that's it's never been done. However, I'd agree that it's a small percentage.

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Emma.
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Re: How much cheating do you think there's going on?

Postby Emma. » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:53 am

MarkRenton wrote:
barnum wrote:The time zone thing has been tried as well

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/27/local/me-58227


I can't believe they didn't tihnk they'd get caught. The article mentions that BOTH of their tests put them in an exclusive group of 150 test takers in the nations. Thus, they both must have gotten 180's. I'm sure anytime two 180s appear in the same room, a bit of looking will be done. When it's noticed that they're both California men jumping time zones...


Top 150 on the day, not top 150 in the nation. Still a good score but not 180s.

LA Times wrote: Their exam scores placed them in the top 150 of about 19,000 test takers that day.




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