LSAT and admissions

09042014
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:07 pm

Go to law school numbers if you want to see the admissions patterns of each school.

One thing you aren't considering, URM students account for a large portion of the sub 25% LSAT category. The number of non URM students below the 25%LSAT is fairly small. Usually you can be in between 25-50%LSAT and above 75% GPA and have a good shot. But there are a lot of people with numbers like that so competition is fierce.

mz253
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:07 pm

i never dispute that. but that 50% under 171 can be as low as they want since they won't affect their ranking anyways.

rx3r wrote:
balzern wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:Edit: Also, please learn what a median is. 50% of a class does NOT have below median scores.

Uh...yes they do, that's the definition.



+1 lol


False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.

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mallard
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Sub-25th percentile spots are usually given to URMs, people with exceptional softs, weird famous people or legacies or whatever, and maybe the occasional 4.0+ GPA.

mz253
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:08 pm

i'm international and asian, does that count any of the diversity? i think it does for college admissions, right?

Desert Fox wrote:Go to law school numbers if you want to see the admissions patterns of each school.

One thing you aren't considering, URM students account for a large portion of the sub 25% LSAT category. The number of non URM students below the 25%LSAT is fairly small. Usually you can be in between 25-50%LSAT and above 75% GPA and have a good shot. But there are a lot of people with numbers like that so competition is fierce.

berkeleykel06
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby berkeleykel06 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:09 pm

balzern wrote:
rx3r wrote:
False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.



50 % scored AT OR BELLOW a 171.


Wrong again lol

09042014
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:10 pm

mz253 wrote:i'm international and asian, does that count any of the diversity? i think it does for college admissions, right?

Desert Fox wrote:Go to law school numbers if you want to see the admissions patterns of each school.

One thing you aren't considering, URM students account for a large portion of the sub 25% LSAT category. The number of non URM students below the 25%LSAT is fairly small. Usually you can be in between 25-50%LSAT and above 75% GPA and have a good shot. But there are a lot of people with numbers like that so competition is fierce.


No it doesn't.

Is your GPA from an American or Canadian school, or an international school?

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mallard
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:10 pm

mz253 wrote:i'm international and asian, does that count any of the diversity? i think it does for college admissions, right?

Desert Fox wrote:Go to law school numbers if you want to see the admissions patterns of each school.

One thing you aren't considering, URM students account for a large portion of the sub 25% LSAT category. The number of non URM students below the 25%LSAT is fairly small. Usually you can be in between 25-50%LSAT and above 75% GPA and have a good shot. But there are a lot of people with numbers like that so competition is fierce.


In college admissions being Asian tends to count against you. In law school admissions it's neutral. I don't think being international helps.

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rx3r
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby rx3r » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:12 pm

Re medians: That's what I was trying to say in a long-winded way.
Last edited by rx3r on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mz253
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:12 pm

american school.

Desert Fox wrote:
mz253 wrote:i'm international and asian, does that count any of the diversity? i think it does for college admissions, right?

Desert Fox wrote:Go to law school numbers if you want to see the admissions patterns of each school.

One thing you aren't considering, URM students account for a large portion of the sub 25% LSAT category. The number of non URM students below the 25%LSAT is fairly small. Usually you can be in between 25-50%LSAT and above 75% GPA and have a good shot. But there are a lot of people with numbers like that so competition is fierce.


No it doesn't.

Is your GPA from an American or Canadian school, or an international school?

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Janus
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby Janus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:15 pm

rx3r wrote:
balzern wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:Edit: Also, please learn what a median is. 50% of a class does NOT have below median scores.

Uh...yes they do, that's the definition.



+1 lol


False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.


Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school accepted in the last cycle, right?

Edited for bad, bad spelling.
Last edited by Janus on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:16 pm

Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.

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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:18 pm

yea, that's what i think. but lots of people think you should get the median. which by definition is when you rank every score, the score in the middle, of if there are two scores in the middle, the average of the two.

sorry about the confusion.


False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?[/quote]

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balzern
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby balzern » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:23 pm

just for clarification:

Scores at or above median = pretty good shot of getting in

Scores median to 25th = stretch?

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Janus
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby Janus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.

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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:24 pm

yea, you can score 160 161 161 161 161 171 171 171 172 179 179 180 and the median is still 171.

so what are you trying to prove here? of course i agree at least half people would score at or above the median. my point is that by your standard (us news only rank by median score and school only cares about improving their median score), once you are in the lower range, say low 160s, it doesn't really make that much a difference if you score 161 or 158, you are below the median anyways. and that won't hurt against their ranking. also the theory still holds for scores in high 170s. becuase they won't make that much a difference in admissions compared to low 170s. say if a school's target median is 173, and if you score 178, you are not helping their median more than anyone score 173. again, this is all based on "school only thinks about how to improve their median LSAT"


rx3r wrote:
balzern wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:Edit: Also, please learn what a median is. 50% of a class does NOT have below median scores.

Uh...yes they do, that's the definition.



+1 lol


False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.

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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mz253 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:25 pm

that's what i think but people here don't agree with me. i say that based on the people i know who have already got into law schools. some of them have higher than median, some of them have lower than median. but again, i don't know about the details. i've never applied to law school, nor have i ever talked to an AO regarding LSAT or GPA

balzern wrote:just for clarification:

Scores at or above median = pretty good shot of getting in

Scores median to 25th = stretch?
Last edited by mz253 on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mallard
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:26 pm

Janus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.


So you haven't looked at the data, but your instincts (what you're "sure" about) are enough to suggest that somebody's overgeneralizing?

You need something special to get in if your numbers are below the medians.

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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:29 pm

Janus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.


It's a generalization but not an over generalization. It is extremely rare, for non urm, and takes special circumstances.

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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby Janus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:30 pm

mallard wrote:
Janus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.


So you haven't looked at the data, but your instincts (what you're "sure" about) are enough to suggest that somebody's overgeneralizing?

You need something special to get in if your numbers are below the medians.


That's why I said maybe they have great softs. I'm not disputing that the odds are against you with numbers on the low end of the percentiles. The question was: Do you have a chance? The answer is yes. But, that's obvious when you look at percentiles and medians, means, etc. The closer you are to the top the better the chance.

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balzern
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby balzern » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:31 pm

mallard wrote:
Janus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.


So you haven't looked at the data, but your instincts (what you're "sure" about) are enough to suggest that somebody's overgeneralizing?

You need something special to get in if your numbers are below the medians.



Numbers meaning GPA AND LSAT bellow medians, correct?

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Janus
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby Janus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Janus wrote:Yeah, I'm confused about this whole thread. I think the percentiles are more important if you are trying to figure out if you have a chance. 75th% > 25th% but if you are at the 25th% you obviously have a chance because you have scored better than 25% of the people the school excepted in the last cycle, right?


You need to have at least your GPA or your LSAT over the median to get in.


That's an over-generalization which is the norm on this forum. You have a chance if both numbers are not at median, it's just not a great chance. But, there are people that beat the odds. The initial post was that people think you have to be above median to get in, which in and of itself doesn't make sense because there have to be people below the medians in order to arrive at the median. Sure, being a splitter is better than having an LSAT and GPA at the 25th, but I'm sure there are people getting in with both numbers on the low end. (This is where everyone shouts URM.) But, I'm sure there are non-URMs getting in as well. Maybe they have great softs. I don't know. The point is you still have a chance, even if the odds are against you.


It's a generalization but not an over generalization. It is extremely rare, for non urm, and takes special circumstances.


Okay. I retract my "over."

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rx3r
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby rx3r » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:42 pm

mz253 wrote:yea, you can score 160 161 161 161 161 171 171 171 172 179 179 180 and the median is still 171.

so what are you trying to prove here? of course i agree at least half people would score at or above the median. my point is that by your standard (us news only rank by median score and school only cares about improving their median score), once you are in the lower range, say low 160s, it doesn't really make that much a difference if you score 161 or 158, you are below the median anyways. and that won't hurt against their ranking. also the theory still holds for scores in high 170s. becuase they won't make that much a difference in admissions compared to low 170s. say if a school's target median is 173, and if you score 178, you are not helping their median more than anyone score 173. again, this is all based on "school only thinks about how to improve their median LSAT"


rx3r wrote:
False, see example: 11 LSAT scores 170, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 171, 172, 172, 172, 180

The median here is 171. However, 50% did not score UNDER 171.

I was trying to correct someone that didn't know the definition of a median. Unfortunately I type slow and don't quote things properly.

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mallard
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:49 pm

balzern wrote:Numbers meaning GPA AND LSAT bellow medians, correct?


Sure. Well, actually, I think usually if one number is below a median but above the 25th, you need the other one to be above the 75th to have a good shot.

I don't think anybody here has suggested that there isn't a rare bird non-URM getting in with below-median numbers. That can happy even without something special - maybe just a great essay or a great interview or something. However, odds are you're not special (by definition). So you shouldn't be thinking too hard about that when you apply. You should determine which schools are reaches, matches, safeties by the numbers (and LSN is a better guide for this than medians, for all the reasons stated in this thread).

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balzern
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby balzern » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:04 pm

so GPA above median and LSAT 25-75 percentile = what kind of chance?

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mallard
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Re: LSAT and admissions

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:07 pm

It really depends. LSN will know better than me for any specific school.




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